Speaker 1: 1:25

What's going on everybody? Welcome to the show. This is the Next Level Human Podcast. I'm your host, dr Jay Tita, and I'm here with my good friend and colleague who's been on the show multiple times, justin Janoska, and we're here talking about Justin's new book, the Post-Dieting Comeback. We have it right here so you can check it out. And obviously, justin, you and I have done this multiple times together. We've talked together, we've lectured together, we've done many podcasts together. We definitely speak the same language, but we come at this from slightly different points of view, and so I always like to give my audience your sort of take on all this stuff. So why don't you let us know why you thought it was so important to put out another book? And, by the way, this is Justin's second book, brand new off the shelves. Make sure you go and get it. But I'm just curious, man.

Speaker 2: 2:24

So why this book? And why now? Yeah, it's a great question. So I think the simplest way to explain it is that because I work with so many women who have autoimmune diseases, reproductive issues, pcos, disordered eating, things like that that are really detrimental and really challenging to work through, I started to see a pattern of how that was shown up.

Speaker 2: 2:49

A lot, of course, but there are these sort of tendencies for women to obviously want to lose weight and I find that, because of what they've been indoctrinated to do and believe, like a lot of us have been taught, when it comes to weight loss, they kind of, in a sense, dig themselves in a deeper hole without knowing it, and it's really a problem because we think, as you talk about a lot, eating less, exercising more is the thing that we are taught to do, and then they do these things and then they are finding themselves with more symptoms and flare-ups and not really getting anywhere. So I thought you know we have to obviously change our approach, but also understand that we need to repair the issues that have happened, that have occurred from doing those things, and also learn about why we're doing this in the first place. That's one of the biggest objectives with that book is to challenge people's ideas around why they not to say that you can't lose weight and there's nothing wrong with that inherently. But why are we actually doing this? Is it because your mother told you that you were overweight when you were 10 years old and you're still carrying that burden and you need to prove to your parents that you're good enough or you're worthy and to be accepted?

Speaker 2: 4:06

All these kinds of things, with trauma potentially or not, but these deeper things, psychologically that we might be carrying the mud that you talk about a lot. So I'm trying to, with this book, kind of tie the connected dots here for people, in addition to obviously helping them repair their metabolism, because there's a lot of that I see too where I'm sure you have as well, where people women are. I actually have a client right now who's going through this, where they've they're doing all the right things and they're still not losing weight or they're still dealing with symptoms, and I just go well, because unfortunately for some women they can't just flip a switch and get everything back to normalcy again. It takes sometimes a year or two or more and it's frustrating. So one of my intentions with this let's let this go by.

Speaker 1: 4:55

We got a siren going by.

Speaker 2: 4:56

Cool go ahead. So one of my intentions with this was to help women see this and realize that this is not a good thing to do and it's a major consequence potentially that if we undereat and deprive ourselves and put our body in a deep survival state, then we might be dealing with a lot of metabolic dysfunction and damage right, and that's going to take some time to recover. So my aim with this was to help people come out of that, but also to help them really see where it comes from in the first place.

Speaker 1: 5:23

Yeah, so the idea here is let's first unpack this idea of post dieting, right? So, like the title of the book is post dieting comeback. You covered a lot there. There's obviously a metabolic component and there's a psychological component, and I know that you and I have both, interestingly enough, in our work, even though we spent most of our time in the metabolism space and you made this switch before me, by the way I think you know where you really started looking at the psychological component of this, and so obviously, this post-dieting comeback has a lot to do with both.

Speaker 1: 6:00

And I guess my question is one of the things and I don't know if you've ever put it this way, but I know that you were sort of talking along these lines before. I was really about this idea that dieting, in a sense and I don't know if you've ever put it this way, but I'm going to put it this way is a symptom of an underlying issue that is also related to the conditions that they have. So does that make sense? Meaning that you know just for you all listening to this, I'll unpack this a little bit more that we think of all these symptoms. Okay, you got autoimmune conditions and you've got fatigue and you got. You know all these things and you know achy joints and you know dysfunctional digestion and we think of those as symptoms. But we don't oftentimes think of the psychological need to diet as a symptom. And if it is a symptom, what's it a symptom of?

Speaker 1: 7:02

And I think you in particular in your work, have really I don't know if you've ever put it that way, but you've really pointed out this idea that when someone has a need to self-soothe or self-control or be hypervigilant around their diet and their exercise, it's pointing to something perhaps deeper. I'm not in all people, but it's pointing to something deeper. So if you don't have any objections, I would like to start there. How do you see that? Do objections? I would like to start there, like, how do you see that? Do you think I'm characterizing it the way you would characterize it? And if so, what would you say this actually is? And then we can start unpacking some of the other stuff.

Speaker 2: 7:42

Yeah, it's an interesting question and thought experiment, but that's actually I don't say it that way, but that's actually how I feel about it. Because, yeah, these are just examples of coping responses and mechanisms that are normal, right, there's nothing wrong with doing that, just like there's nothing wrong with being a people pleaser or counting your calories and macros. But we have research and I actually have about 68 studies, I think, in that book I referenced that highlights these sort of things and how counting macros and calories and weighing yourself all the time is flirting with, you know, disordered eating, in a sense, and body dysmorphia. So you know, because the argument is that people will say, well, I don't have an eating disorder and I don't, and that's true, like a lot of people, most people don't statistically, and I don't, and that's true, like a lot of people, most people don't Statistically. It's a very small percentage, right of the world.

Speaker 2: 8:36

But I think what actually is going on is people are in the gray zone where they're actually dealing with disordered habits. That may or may not be an issue. So my contention is that these are the things that maybe not be disruptive right now, but they could be psychologically personally in your romantic relationships and other relationships. But psychologically, if it's creating stress internally, with inner dialogue and intrusive thoughts and feelings of inadequacy and shame or all that, then that's going to affect the quantum metabolism and the biology and energetically, that, I think, is a real issue for women who are dealing with chronic illnesses, because it's just reinforcing the stress and the survival state and it's kind of unconscious, right. You don't realize it. So that's what I'm trying to do, is highlight this sort of thing because if we don't change that, it might be one of the biggest blocks to their healing and recovery.

Speaker 1: 9:28

Yeah, you know there's a term we use in functional medicine and the naturopathic. My background was kind of on top of this right from the beginning when I learned, but it's the idea of psycho, neuro endocrine immune function and I don't know that other people ever saw it this way, but I always saw it in order. I always saw it as like, yeah, psycho comes first, because the psychology impacts the neurology, which impacts the endocrinology, which impacts the immune system. So I know we put these words together, but I actually see it also as that's actually how it flows and to me, actually, something comes prior to psycho, which is conscious, so it's conscious, psycho, neuro endocrine immune function and to me, that consciousness component, the part that holds our ego and our identity and our beliefs and our stories about who it is that we think we are, that make up our psychology and personality. It seems to me that this is what you're pointing to. Now I definitely want to get into some of the stuff that actually happens further up in the neuroendocrine immune, but one of the things I really always like about your work is you do seem to be talking about this psycho part and I'm just adding on a part before that this consciousness, or subconsciousness in the case of many of these people, where it is at the level of their identity, their ego structure, their stories and beliefs about who they are that might compel them to be overzealous or extreme in their diet. And so let me just just so, because I don't know if that makes sense to the listener, but I'll just give you an example of what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1: 11:16

So you come up, let's say, in childhood development or adolescent development, and let's say, maybe you're bullied and this would be my case, by the way, with my brother so maybe you're bullied and unconsciously you learn to fight, which I did, and you end up putting on a lot of muscle, which I did, and you build up this armor, and so I became obsessive about the gym. Now I thought I loved the gym and I did love the gym, but when I go back and look, I can directly see, oh, that some of my difficult life experiences led me to seek out the gym for very particular reasons and that led me to perhaps be, at times in my life, overly engaged, to the point of my detriment, in dieting and exercise to build muscle, including using performance enhancing drugs and all the other things. Now, that might not necessarily be something that I was conscious of until later, in the case of, perhaps, a woman who maybe was told they were fat, or was rejected in some way or didn't make the cheerleading team, or something like that. This also seems to perhaps follow people around, and that's what I mean here. And so is that how you see it?

Speaker 1: 12:32

And I'm wondering. I mean, obviously this is an incredibly well-referenced book, so is this how you're seeing it? Are there other components to this?

Speaker 2: 12:40

Yeah, that's exactly it and I think, a big motivating factor for me to write this, because there are many factors, but one of the common themes I see a lot with clients who have chronic illnesses is they have disordered eating tendencies and habits and these dieting behaviors and things that are seemingly innocuous, but when you really dig in and learn about their identity and their past and their story and what kind of happened, you see a lot of these little t trauma things, these adversities, these struggles, whatever you want to call it. And that's what I'm trying to point out for people, because I don't think people are aware of it, and that's actually the whole point is to really shine a light on this so they can see that this might. I had an aunt, I had a mother who told me that I need to lose weight on Monday, I need to go on this diet and especially when you have a parent and a lot of times people have parents, I have a client right now who has a mother, it's still bulimic and you can see all the generational trauma behind that and some people have that and some people don't. They just have a parent who models for eating habits and they binge eat and they eat poorly and they talk negatively about their body and they project that onto their kids.

Speaker 2: 13:57

And this is little stuff that doesn't seem problematic. But, as we know, that can be imprinted in the psyche and you carry that around and it's like an indelible mark in your brain and then as an adolescent you start to see the signs of these things and you don't notice it necessarily, but when you really work with somebody, you dig into that. You can kind of see like these are all coping responses that were necessary and helped you survive and get through. But now you're in a different environment and now it's a detrimental and how is it so, you know?

Speaker 1: 14:33

so now let's go one layer up. We kind of talked about the conscious aspect, let's call it the conditioning of the identity childhood, adolescence, young adulthood. Now what happens? The level up? So now we're in the level of the psychoneuro, so it essentially impacts the nervous system, which then impacts the hormone system, which then impacts the immune system. So what you're pointing out is this autoimmunity, which seems to be prevalent in these cases, you know. So are you seeing it like this? And, if so, walk us through how this starts to hit the metabolism in a way that you know, people who are like, don't really want to get into the psychology which I know you and I love, and I do want to come back to that want to get into the psychology which I know you and I love, and I do want to come back to that. But for the people who go, okay, how is this manifesting then in the metabolism? What's it actually doing, and do we have evidence to show what it's doing?

Speaker 2: 15:18

Yeah, and that's the most challenging thing, because some people are not really sold on that idea. They could say and admit that, oh yeah, I had my mother treat me like this or said this to me, and they might carry that with them and make a story out of it and say that was significant and it's impacted me. And a lot of times they don't because it's so subtle, right, and I just go okay, no worries, I'm not here to convince you, but I would say there are objective measures that we can look at to see if you're still in survival mode or self-danger response or those kinds of things that are basically explaining why you're not getting better. And I'm saying this because a lot of people have done a lot of things and tried every protocol under the sun and aren't getting much better. And I just go I don't think it's more. And now, sure, there could be some things we could refine with your environment and your protocols and whatnot, and working on the physiology, but I think the biggest block is that I'm finding is that there's still a lot of the stuff in the attic between their ears that hasn't been addressed or healed and they haven't found the right protocol or right therapies or healing modalities and still playing out of the personality patterns and traits. And it's still playing out in the personality patterns and traits.

Speaker 2: 16:35

If that's going on, you're in a sense reinforcing the stress and the hormones.

Speaker 2: 16:38

And this is why we look at reverse T3 and heart rate variability and saliva cortisol and you can kind of get a sense.

Speaker 2: 16:45

Saliva cortisol is perhaps the most helpful marker because we know from research that people who have complex trauma or PTSD, even and even just mild cases of stress, I think they have really abnormal patterns.

Speaker 2: 17:02

And if your cortisol, for example, is really low all day or most of the day, that's going to be an issue. In fact it's bad if it's high, it's bad if it's low, and so that isn't to say that it's all rooted in psychology and unprocessed emotions, but what I'm trying to say is that if we're trying to correct for everything else and we've dealt with the parasites and the bacteria and the leaky gut and all the toxins we were dealing with that we think we have and you're not getting better then we need to look at what's going on in the non-physical, intangible world, and that's the thing that I've been trying to point out, and when I help people with that sort of stuff, they find improvements in their labs, they find improvements in their symptoms and they didn't have to try so hard. And I'm not trying to make it sound like it's that simple, but it tells me that, just from observation, that that might be the missing link. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 17:54

Yeah, it makes complete sense and I can tell you that and you know this. But I'll say this to the listener and a lot of them who listen to me also know this but I have moved almost exclusively in this direction for the exact reasons that you mentioned. I spent decades helping people and I was known to get good results, and I feel like my results were crap. I'm just being honest about that, and to me, I feel like I have seen more in the last seven years, as I've really delved into the psycho-emotional components and what I might call quantum metabolism, which has a lot more to do with just thoughts and beliefs. It actually has a lot to do with mechanisms underneath the endocrine system that are really in charge of things, which I've done podcasts on those. But I feel like I have never gotten better results with individuals than I am now just dealing with this material, and so I'm going to say something. I want to see your take on this, because this we haven't really talked about in terms of you and I haven't looked at talking about. What do we think? The statistics are here, but from my perspective, this might seem controversial, but as a contributing factor, I would say nearly 100% of people as a contributing factor, have underlying what I would call MUD, which is an acronym Many of you have heard this, but for me, the acronym is just misguided, unconscious decisions. It's just a short-term way of saying your limiting beliefs and or belief structures that are inhibiting your ability to do the things that you need to do to make the lifestyle changes, and or inhibiting the metabolism to make the changes it can make when you make those lifestyle changes. I think 100% contribution and, by the way, if anyone doubts that, to me, all I'm saying is stress and the many forms of it, including psychological 100% is contributing to any condition out there. It's a contributing factor.

Speaker 1: 22:37

Now, the trick, though, is how much is causative? Now, we don't know these answers. Maybe you have a guess, but how much is causative? Maybe you have a guess, but how much is causative, and I think it's a very, very significant portion. I don't think it's most people. Maybe you think it's most. I don't even know that it's 50 percent, right Causative. I would say my guess is somewhere between 30 to 50 percent of people. This is actually the cause of their issues, and maybe in your, where you and I are coming from, because we work with a lot of hard cases. Maybe in those particular cases it's the vast majority of the people we see, but I'm wondering just how you're seeing this.

Speaker 2: 23:21

Yeah, that's why it's a little biased right, because when you work with extreme cases you can kind of see things from a particular angle. And to me that's the most salient part of this discussion is because a lot of it is rooted in emotions and the psycho-emotional aspect of it that you can't control and do a protocol to get rid of it, and that's what most people are gravitating towards right to get rid of it, and that's what most people are gravitating towards right. But yes to your point, I think that there is a correlation with any of these sort of things, with symptoms and the complaints that you have. And actually what I think it really is is more of an accumulation and accruing all these emotions from the past to present. And that's actually what I try to say is that you have maybe old stuff, but because the physiology and the neurobiology are shifting now, because, depending on where you are and when these things happen in your life, it's going to pave the way going forward. So the earlier the stuff happens, the quicker. The quicker, the more drastic the brain changes and that can really shape the hormones, immune system, the nervous system, especially in a profound way, versus right, because we know that there are differences between somebody who goes through sexual abuse at age three versus age 18. Right, so those things matter. I think it has a lot to do with it.

Speaker 2: 24:42

But I also think that, if nothing else, we're just in a very stressful time in life now, and even if you're not convinced, trauma or adversity isn't part of your biography.

Speaker 2: 24:56

You have patterns and behaviors and type A personality traits and things like this that are very common, that aren't again a problem until they are taken to the extreme, and when they are, that is my. That's the point I'm trying to make is that there's no off switch. There's no, nothing changes, and then you're constantly reinforcing the stress in the body, but because it's your new normal, you're not seeing it as an issue. So that's the hardest thing is that if you're not even aware of what's going on, then nothing's going to change, right? So my goal is to kind of at least point that out and say this could be going on. It doesn't mean you can't do these things and have these personality traits, but it can't just take over your whole life because you don't see that it's actually intensifying and compounding the problems you have, and this is more of an issue with chronic illness and autoimmunity, like we said. That's how I see it.

Speaker 1: 25:46

I mean, I'll tell you one of my big pet peeves when I hear this and even when I do this work, because this is the work that I do now I mean it's very different. But I'll tell you what my biggest pet peeve is that and this is my pet peeve has always been this and throughout medicine, it's my pet peeve in this space too. We could talk mechanisms all day long, but what I found moving into this space and I moved into the space not because I was like, oh, I'm interested in this work, I moved into the space because I was like I wasn't getting results and I'm interested in getting results and what I have found in this space, as well as the rest of metabolism and medicine, is that a lot of people like to talk mechanisms they get so excited about. Here's a new mechanism, but to me, I go, that doesn't really get us results, and so I am curious from your perspective, what do you?

Speaker 1: 26:37

How do you get results here? Because if it's not doing the supplements, that's working on a physiological level, it's not taking the actual hormone replacement or whatever it is, it's what is it? And how do you actually get results with people in this space? Because, from my perspective, it's not enough to be like, oh, you've got some difficult stuff that you went through as a kid and you're not aware of it. It's like, okay, well, how do I address that?

Speaker 2: 27:05

Yeah, and I think the simplest way to explain this is thinking broadly. The whole goal is to teach your body a new way of being and feeling, into a state of safety and regulation, and that can have. You can do a lot of different things to get you there, and that's actually the whole art of this. Right Is to figure out what works for the client and the patient and to see what they're vibing with and connecting with and what they can do on their own to reinforce that when we're not in session. Like that's actually the meat and bones of it. It's not going to happen necessarily just because you do something in session and you learn some grounding technique and whatever else to your vagus nerve and you feel good for a while.

Speaker 2: 27:43

That also has this sort of oversimplified approach, which is why I'm not a huge fan of. I'm a fan of it, but I'm not a huge fan of like the way it is now, where it's like well, just do some humming and some you know, far gazing and breathing and you're going to stimulate your vagus nerve and you're good it's. You can't just shortcut your way to it, and so it's about really learning your triggers, I think, and noticing those things and having the strategies in place. So I think of it as that, as having as I call like an emergency kit tool to whatever that is to help you regulate in the moment, and then also whatever you do that I like to do and teach in the morning to create the foundation so that you can move forward in the day with that. You know what I call love-based energy, not fear-based energy. So that's actually the hardest part about all this. Yeah, I was going to say it or something else, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:41

So if I have this, I'll share with everybody sort of what I feel like is an approach that I use. There's lots of different approaches, but like if we are dealing with something that's a story or a belief structure, which to me is something that happened, as a judgment, like so the way I look at it, I go all right. So imagine, I don't know like. We'll just take my example. Imagine I'm a little kid and I'm being bullied by my brother and it's not a sudden and severe emotional event. It wasn't like all of a sudden, sudden or severe. It was a and that happens all at once. This would be like a car accident or physical abuse or sexual abuse or something like that. Something all at once happens. Or I can get myself here subtly the subtle, difficult events that are minor but happen over and over and over and over again. So this would be the bullying aspect. Now this gets stuck in my belief. Now, as a child, I'm mostly in theta brainwave states and this occurs usually if I'm getting bullied, I go into this sympathetic state and I'm making a judgment and telling a story, while I'm in this sympathetic state, with a dominant theta state and a story that's in my head. So my thought is, and the work that I do is, I essentially have just tried to recreate that fatal brainwave state, that sympathetic state, and then change the story through visualization techniques and prompting techniques, and that seems to be the rewriting, or at least editing, of the story. But you brought up something else that I think is another component of this.

Speaker 1: 30:27

I think the first component is rewrite, which I just talked a little bit of. How I do that, your technique seems like when it comes up, you spot the trigger and you tell yourself a different story. Right, so you're spotting the thought. And then there's what I would consider the rewire phase, which is what you're speaking to, where it's like immersing yourself in feelings, elevated emotions, not emotions of what I would call afraid, like anger, frustration, resistance, anxiety, insecurity, depression. Instead you're in emotions of bliss and love and acceptance and understanding and openness and wonder, and fun and laughter, and you put yourself in those states.

Speaker 1: 31:08

And so, from my perspective, there seems to be these two components there's a rewriting of the belief structure and a rewiring of the emotional holding pattern. And, by the way, from my perspective that's not a nervous system phenomena really. Yes, it is, but in a sense I see that more as the conscious psycho part of the conscious psycho neuroendocrine immune situation. I think there's a third component, is a retrain phase, that I think that's where the nervous system gets in. But with your techniques I'm just wondering how you work. I think it's got to be at least those three components, and then we have lots of different tools. So to me it's like a rewrite, rewire retrain. Now, all of a sudden we've taken care of the conscious psycho part of the conscious psycho neuroendocrine immune. Now we can work on the neuroendocrine immune.

Speaker 2: 32:03

Yeah, I actually see it the same way. I think I should have said that the thing you do in the moment when you have that hyper or hypo arousal state is the emergency kit tool practice I actually talked about in the last chapter of the book is what this is about. It's called identity shift. So it's all about that, and I'm providing a lot of these sort of exercises and things to help people at least open the door to it right and be curious enough to want to do that. But there's a technique in there that is about this. I call it the greet technique and that's really again about. Basically it's around mindfulness and acceptance and-.

Speaker 1: 32:42

Well, let's go through it. What exactly? How does it work?

Speaker 2: 32:45

Yeah, so it's starting with grounding right, creating a sense of safety and reality your mind, wherever that is right, and that is step one right. So you ground into-. Yeah, so you're grounding into safety, any regulation, anything that makes you feel-.

Speaker 1: 33:06

Which is gonna be the opposite of what most people will do when they're in a fight, flight or response, especially if their nervous system is used to that Right.

Speaker 2: 33:14

So I'm assuming GREET is an acronym then yes, I'm sorry, I should have said that. So you're grounding and then you're researching the body and noticing where that feeling is giving a color, shape, all that stuff, and also noticing tension, tightness and pressure if necessary, and then you're embracing it, and that's the idea of kind of holding it with acceptance, and I like to talk about it as imagine, you're holding a wounded animal or an egg or something very delicate. You want to hold your feeling like that too, and so it's not about being attached, it's not about detached, it's being non-attached, so that's creating space for it and greeting it at the door like it is a friend you've been seen in 20 years. That's the idea, the intention behind that, and then it's evoke as the third, fourth step Evoking is.

Speaker 2: 34:02

So what I'm trying to do here is create a mismatch in the sense of you have this feeling that's uncomfortable. Then you also create a feeling of by imagining or thinking about something that a time basically, when you didn't feel that way, probably something more uplifting that happened earlier in your day, for instance, to make it easy to access, and then the T is transform. That's really about bringing self-compassion and I know these are simple things we've heard of, but they're very powerful, and it's just we don't take the time to do it. And I think we need to do it and rehearse it over and over again, because that's actually where the healing happens.

Speaker 1: 34:39

You know what? I actually don't think it's that simple and I'll tell you why. And I'll tell you why I think it's so important to go through it, because I think most of the listeners they don't. Actually, the reason they think this stuff is simple is because they don't realize the underlying science behind it. So, if you'll allow me and you jump in with this too but one of the things to understand is that if Justin and I are talking, we can't, and he's got dysfunctional, limiting beliefs in his unconscious. I can't just tell hey, justin, you've got dysfunctional beliefs in your unconscious, let's talk about it. This is what therapy does, by the way, and to me, what therapy can do is it can go hey, there it is, you have it. But think about it.

Speaker 1: 35:21

When I used to like when you realize if you're an asshole and then all of a sudden you finally realize that you actually are an asshole, that doesn't feel too good. So now you know you got the problem. You were unaware of it before it. Oftentimes you just process, process, process. So to me, what I have learned about some of these techniques is that when you drop into different brainwave states, it's kind of like going from a conscious, logical mind to an unconscious mind. So what actually happens scientifically? As soon as you tell me, close your eyes. And I want you to imagine this feeling in your body. Where is it? Oh, it's in my chest. Can you give it a personality? Oh, it's kind of like an angry old man. Does it have a temperature? Yeah, it's black, it's sticky. What's its texture like? As soon as you start doing that, you move out of the conscious beta brainwave states into alpha and theta brainwave states. Your brain shifts more into an unconscious state, because the brain does not think. The subconscious mind doesn't think in logic and linear language. It thinks in symbol, it thinks in metaphor, it thinks in feeling. Right, so that's actually what's happening there. And at that point then you can begin to actually now say hey, by the way, that dysfunctional belief you have. Now. Look at it and now it doesn't come across as oh, I've got this thing, I've got this mother wound, I've got blah, blah, blah. It just comes across as oh, my God, I've got this feeling, this sensation here that manifests first as a nausea, then goes into like a feeling of twisting and gut discomfort, and it's associated with this potential particular event. And, by the way, what I've found is that we don't really have memories up until about four years old, so most of the time you don't actually need to know the memory. All you need to do is get people into the feelings and they come up.

Speaker 1: 37:13

I really love that technique. It's very simple. I use a similar one in my. When I'm working with a client, I should go okay, stop right there, shut your eyes, let's stick with that feeling. Where is it in the body? What's its temperature, what's its texture? Once I do that, they go into alpha fatal brainwaves. They come out of the conscious mind a little bit. If I get them doing breath work, I can do that. If I get them doing coherence breathing, I can do that If I get them, and I say, hey, that feeling of nausea is just like a psychic entity, a person, let's talk to it. That puts them in a different brainwave state. So it sounds like to me what you're doing is putting them in these different brainwave states so that you can actually work with the material and it's no longer like therapy. This is very different.

Speaker 2: 37:56

Yeah, absolutely right. Yeah, because I say it all the time. Like you said, I can't talk you out of a feeling you don't want to have into a feeling you do want, or out of a behavior you don't want to have into a behavior you do want, and that's the issue. So when you have people with eating disorders or sort of eating habits, and yeah, you could try to make a, you could willpower your way and try to change it, but it's not that easy and it's usually not because you have a strong part of you that's really attached to that.

Speaker 2: 41:27

So I think the brainwave changing states are very useful, because I don't always use it, but I think that yes to your point, and I've obviously experienced your work with that.

Speaker 2: 41:38

But I think that's a great way to get your logical brain out of it and that's why it's useful. And and then you don't have to try to rationalize and figure that out. And that's what's so great about it, because you know a lot of this is working with hanging on the unknown, and that's the hardest thing I think, at least for me to explain to people, because they want to know the process, the protocol, whatever it is that therapy and traditional stuff does. It gives them a sense of control, in a sense, but you don't have that when you're hanging out in the unknown, which is what this is doing, and so you're going to explore and find sensory fragments and fragmented parts of memory, which is what you're talking about. Right, what's hitting your senses? So the smells, the sounds and whatever else that comes up, and that's actually the easiest way to work with it and also not to re-traumatize, in a sense.

Speaker 1: 42:27

Yeah, and one of the things I could tell you, too that I see in this work is that I oftentimes will start doing this with people and the people who are most resistant to it, and they are the ones who are the ones who are most logical and most hypervigilant. So think about this for a minute Someone who is in beta brainwave states, and then high beta brainwave states Beta, by the way, for those of you listening, beta brainwave states are where we are right now. Justin and I are talking. You all are listening to us talk. We're all focused, we're having a conversation, we're engaged. That's beta brainwave states.

Speaker 1: 42:57

When we get stressed out, we go into high beta and it helps focus us right. Imagine a lion chasing us. We're not going to be thinking about what we're going to have for dinner. We're thinking about I got to put one foot in front of the other and just run. We get hyper and we get hyper focused. Now imagine and I like to use this example of like we're on the plains of Africa, on the Savannah, and we see a lion coming towards us. We go from beta brainwave state to high beta brainwave. That lion goes away. We're still on the Savannah. We don't get into a car. We're not safe, so we're going to stay somewhat in beta brainwaste. They're going to be hypervigilant.

Speaker 1: 43:40

And so what happens is those people who are ultimately very hypervigilant have a very difficult time doing breath work, getting into meditation, doing anything that takes them out of hypervigilance, because they're so damn hypervigilant, which I always go. So if that's you and you're like, well, I've tried that stuff and it always annoys me or I can't get into it, I'm like you actually need it the most, because that's what happens with these individuals they can't actually just slow down and do the breath work or slow down and tap into their core. And so what I've done a lot of is trying to figure out very quick ways to get people out of the hypervigilance. And what I feel like and this is one of the things I want to ask you I have moved away from, which I know a lot of people go. Why are you doing it that way?

Speaker 1: 44:24

I've moved away from calming breath as the first step and instead go into intense breath, and the reason why is that I'm like all right, if you're worried about the lion coming, let's just go ahead and start running away from the lion and get that out of your system, so then we can go and relax. And so if you're one of these hypervigilant people who can't get into these states, those people, as soon as I see it, I go okay, now we're not going to do the calming anything, we're first going to get you to sprint, then we'll bring you down into this thing.

Speaker 2: 44:56

It makes a lot of sense and, yeah, I completely agree with that, because a lot of people are in their head all the time. It's also a strategy to avoid what's unbearable and uncomfortable too, right, so those types of people have the hardest time with healing because of that. It's also pointing to where the work needs to be done, right, but yes to your point. I think they got to empty their tank in a sense, so they can have nothing left. They can relax, but that's the challenge, right.

Speaker 1: 45:27

Yeah, it's totally the challenge. I totally see sort of the issue here. And the other thing I wanted to bring up see what you think about this. But the other thing I've noticed about this is that a lot of these behaviors that we in our culture and a lot of the outcomes are good things, right, like so. For example, for me when I was younger not so much now, right, but when I was younger I was a pretty muscular dude and that was a good thing. It helped me have an emotional outlet in the gym. It helped me work off some of the anger that I was dealing with, helped me work off and people looked at me and was like, oh well, you know he's, he's fit. And I looked at myself like I'm fit and it became an important part of my identity. So what's really interesting about this work is a lot of the outcomes and the behaviors associated with the reason that we're stuck are actually positive attributes in culture and in our personality.

Speaker 1: 46:33

And this is another thing that I think is a difficult piece of this work, because you know I've heard it called the racket in the landmark form work. I don't know if you ever did landmark form or some of that work. But the racket is this idea of, or strong suit, right? The racket is this thing that you do Like we work out and we try to watch our eating. Your strong suit has a good thing, but it also is a coping mechanism for something else. Ultimately, it's very difficult to want to listen to anyone that tells you hey, by the way, that thing that you love to do that actually makes you so fit and makes you look up, you know, proud of yourself and this, and that is actually the thing that might be the problem.

Speaker 2: 50:13

Yeah, that's basically the whole argument and that's why we can talk about metabolic repair and all the issues that happen with our dieting practices, and, yeah, let's talk about it. But what I'm also saying more quickly is that, at the end of the day, it's really about questioning why you do any of this and why you struggle with this stuff, and that's not for me to decide, but for you to have a curious mind that can be like you know what? Wow, maybe there is something there that I have to look at, because if I can change that, then I don't get stuck in the cycle of under eating, being attached to my body image, struggling with food or exercise. That lands me in this metabolic craziness place, right? So it's all about seeing the domino effect that can happen, and it starts with, like you said, the change in consciousness. The person that got you sick, the person that got you in this position, can't be the same person that gets you better, right? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 51:08

Yeah, so walk us through then, because I think we've dealt with the concho-psycho part. What about the neurology, the endocrine, the immune piece? Is there anything you want to say? There Is it, is it because, for example, someone might be listening to this and they're like okay, so I get that. I have to, number one, uncover these beliefs and sort of edit them, rewrite them. I also get that. My, I need to rewire my emotional holding pattern. So I think that's the first two things that you and I are saying right, we have to, we have to edit the old beliefs. We have to rewire not the nervous system, we have to rewire the emotional holding pattern, which is associated with the nervous system. To me it's where the nervous system and the conscious psycho meet. But then we have to retrain the nervous system, endocrine system, immune system, the metabolism. What about this part? What are we telling people? We tell them exercise less.

Speaker 2: 52:07

We tell them eat more. What are we actually doing here? Yeah, I mean, at a fundamental level, it is going to be about kind of a lot of the things that you've taught over the years, which is kind of doing the opposite of what you've been told. So I really like to instill this message of silence, solitude and stillness, like people need more of that, and it sounds great in theory but hard to do, right? Tell someone to take a half a day off and not have a to-do list and see how they do right. It's not that easy. I try to get people in that direction because they can't go full throttle every day and expect to see a change in any disease state, any symptom and especially weight loss, right. So this is the art of this, and trying to figure out what they can connect with and do. That's going to make them feel different and also act differently and not have these parts of them that are coping strategies kind of dominate their life.

Speaker 2: 52:57

I think that, yes, we can do all this sort of interventions with hormones and cortisol and gut health and all those kinds of things that could. You know, a lot of that happens, like candida and overgrowth of bugs and things like that because of distress on the body. You know it's a thing that usually happens, so we can correct those things. I think the thing I like to really talk about and highlight nowadays and I mentioned the book too is really the mitochondria and cellular repair, because that's actually a lot of where the issues lie, especially with the metabolic and flexibility side of things that we know that happens with chronic dieting and really just saying that If you feel like you can't tolerate foods like you used to and you're gaining weight looking at food, that's what that's about. Right, shift from a whole day of eating high fat, high carbs to a whole day of fasting and vice versa. That's a hard thing for people. So these kinds of things are already clues of metabolic inflexibility and that's why I talk about mitochondrial health and how this is actually, in a sense, the thing that's falling apart before it can even show up on labs Like that can happen too.

Speaker 2: 54:04

So we have to do that anyway, even if you have a chronic illness or not, because if you're that metabolically out of balance, that's probably not working for you, then you can look at blood sugar levels and things like that to confirm it. To me that's sort of the thing that has to be explored, because people don't even realize they're actually pre-diabetic or flirting with it, and that's not a great thing, and that could be maybe one of the things that is preventing you from losing weight, right? One of the things that I'm trying to point out, too, in addition to kind of the subtle imbalances. Again, again, people don't know this because their doctors are blowing it off and saying you're fine, you're normal. That's what happens, unfortunately.

Speaker 2: 54:46

If we can have a more nuanced look at this and you, being a detective, looking at your labs and understanding that there could be signs of imbalances way before you reach that and get out of range and you have symptoms to match with it, then there's your evidence. That's actually what I'm trying to sell people on, and thyroid, of course, but these are the kind of basic things and, either way, I think supporting the mitochondria with the cell and the cells has got to be a key thing.

Speaker 1: 55:16

We can talk about what that is exactly, but yeah, yeah Well, for me, you know, for me, the simplest thing to do, like, so let's just, you know, sort of repeat what we're saying First, you got to deal with these unconscious beliefs. Most people aren't doing that. Second, we got to rewire the emotional holding patterns. Most people don't do that. We've covered that. Now we're in.

Speaker 1: 55:35

This sort of retraining phase is where the habits, behaviors, skills, all of that stuff come in. This is like the what to eat. So I think what you're saying here is like OK, this is really going to depend on the person, but there are some basic things that people can do. For me, those basic things are you know, you need to move the body. Walking, it's not going to overstimulate the body. You know, some basic weight training, probably.

Speaker 1: 55:59

Movement, light exposure, getting outside, simple living type stuff. All that kind of stuff to me has to be there first, and then you can start going into all the stuff that people start with the biohacking, the blood sugar regulation, all these labs, all this other stuff, and to me, I go. This is why I feel like people don't get results, because what they're doing is, if we look at this as a pyramid, the tiny top of the pyramid is biohacking and blood labs and this fancy supplement and this goji juice and this triple detox binders and whatever it is when I'm just like, look the belief systems underneath Whatever it is when I'm just like, look the belief systems underneath the emotional holding patterns, underneath the general living, underneath of moving your body, getting good quality nutrition, getting light, circadian rhythms, all of that kind of stuff, most of that stuff, just say, are driving health. Yeah, absolutely right. I think it's backwards, you're right, and that's actually.

Speaker 2: 57:14

I have a pyramid in there that's about weight loss and how it's kind of like what you said, but it's really about saying you got to deal with the emotional holding patterns and the belief systems and the trauma and all that and then you can start to look at physiology and you can still do that. But I'm saying there's probably a stopping point. You're going to reach a dead end Maybe if there is still all that muck in the ground that you haven't dealt with or in your past, your shadows, right, and so it's easy to control and work on all the physiology with all the biohacks and things. But what I'm saying is, if you're not getting results with that, then it's probably letting you know that there's something energetically still that needs to be addressed.

Speaker 1: 57:52

Yeah, you know why I think a lot of people have problems with this. Two things I want to cover then we can end. But two things I want to cover here because the way my brain works is I go like this Okay, if emotional struggles are such an issue for people, how come we don't see a one-to-one ratio of everyone who has emotional struggles, being overweight and sick? We just don't see that. And also, how come we see so many fit people who have hypervigilance, who have all the things, who have lots of trauma, and they look absolutely great. And I want to hear your answers. But my answers are just because someone looks good doesn't mean that they're actually healthy. We see people all the time dropping dead. Fit people these people don't necessarily live longer. If you're paying attention and I know longevity is all the thing right now but if you're actually paying attention paying attention and I know longevity is all the thing right now but if you're actually paying attention you're not necessarily seeing all the fit people necessarily living the longest. Plenty of them die in their fees. We see runners dropping dead. So I don't know that that's necessarily true, but it is a pervasive sort of belief. Now the research will say these behaviors seem to be associated with greater longevity. So that might be there.

Speaker 1: 59:01

But then how come we don't see the opposite either, that every single person who's overweight or sick should then have some kind of emotional dysfunction. And the way I see that is that this stuff is too hidden to really understand. But sometimes illness is just illness. Sometimes you're spraining your ankle and it's not because you had some kind of emotional trauma. Sometimes you get parasites and it's got nothing to do with the fact that you had a hard childhood. So I think these two things confuse people, and the third one is the idea of the word trauma. But first let's cover the first two. What's your explanation for the fact if this is because I know that this is the way people are looking at it, whether they're conscious of it or not they're going okay. But I see plenty of people who seem to look good, be healthy, are going to live long, healthy lives, who had completely dysfunctional lifestyles and traumas and dramas and difficulties. If this is really the reason, why aren't these people having problems?

Speaker 2: 1:00:01

yeah, so I talk about briefly, um, about competitors and competition and bikini and that whole bodybuilding kind of side of the industry and health space too, because that's a great example of people who look great and have metabolic distress and a lot of issues.

Speaker 1: 1:00:22

Not everybody but See and I think people would not believe that right there they just go look how good they look Like. What do you mean? These are the healthiest people, and I think even those people think they're the healthiest people, Exactly Right.

Speaker 2: 1:00:34

And to add to that, there are a lot like there's no study around this, but my belief is that a lot of people who do these sort of extreme sports and things have a lot of mud and a lot of trauma and things that are going on. I actually have one of my friends who contributed to this book. Her name is Lauren and she's a two-time Olympian winner and IFBB pro and she has a lot of experience in the space and kind of you know, because I could say one thing but I wanted to know if I'm the only one thinking this way and she really echoed a lot of um, what I, what I thought, and that there's a lot of dysfunction and a lot of disordered patterns, not just from the sport, but from what's already been going on in their life to make them want to do this in the first place, like why are you really on stage? What's already been going on in their life to make them want to do this in the first place? Like, why are you really on stage?

Speaker 1: 1:01:22

What's the yeah, being on stage and the need to be on stage and the need for that acceptance is a symptom of decrement in acceptance belonging safety, security, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 1:01:33

Yeah, so that's why we mentioned that. But yeah, unfortunately, I think that's why you have to look at those biomarkers and see, well, how healthy are they actually? Because even if you don't have symptoms because that's going to tell you the truth and that's where I go I'm like, well, you don't have to believe me, let's test these things and see if your body's literally screaming for help and let's address this conversation you and I've had multiple times.

Speaker 1: 1:01:58

It's a huge pet peeve of mine, not so much for you. You're less averse to it than I am. I don't like the term trauma at all and I have, and I just don't, because I don't think most people have it. I don't think most people have trauma. Now I want you to push back on me because I know you have a different perspective, but I don't think most people have trauma. Not only do I not think most people have trauma, I think trauma is pretty rare. The kind of trauma that we talked about is pretty damn rare People in war, people who've been raped, people who and so then I just go. Yet I know this is happening. So what's your way of dealing with someone who goes I don't have trauma, I don't need to read your book or listen to you know sort of what's going on here, because they think they don't have it. So my whole thing is why are we still calling it trauma then?

Speaker 2: 1:02:58

I think that's the psychiatry and youry and the experts in the field that have perpetuated that sort of language. That's part of the issue. Chapter two is all about childhood, upbringing and this sort of stuff, and I come out the gate literally saying exactly what I think you're suggesting too, which is that most people don't have trauma, and I agree with that, actually not in the sense of, in the sense of we don't have the trauma of a natural disaster or being in a motor vehicle accident or these kind of extreme things. What people have, though and this is what I study a lot now in school we talk about this a lot, but with like complex trauma and these sort of maybe CPTSD you might say, but again, the labels are not helpful because it also gets people to run away from that or just be in denial of it, like I don't have that. I was never told I do, I was never diagnosed, so it's not even necessary. It's more about coming to terms with the truth, and whatever you want to call it and describe it, it's what's true. That's why I don't even say you have trauma or not. It's self-identified. You decide what it is. So call whatever you want, I don't really care, but I think what we're actually experiencing more just like with disorder, eating being more prevalent than eating disorder statistically speaking I think that's what's happening.

Speaker 2: 1:04:14

We're seeing the same with this these micro traumas, these acts of omission where it's about not getting your needs met and not feeling safe or both, and a lot of this that I find, and even the research.

Speaker 2: 1:04:28

It's about what happens at home, and the caregivers and the parents are usually a big player in this, and no one likes to hear this and it's a touchy thing because people feel like it's an attack on their parenthood. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that this is what we find and this is why we don't see this trauma, because we don't realize that well, my parent who was giving me a hard time or was critical of me and wanted me to perform well in school and sports and all this stuff, and that wasn't traumatic, but it could have been stressful on your system in a way that, at the right time, with repetition because usually it has to happen over and over and over and over again that changes your physiology in some way, and then you have these adaptive patterns to deal with that and to keep yourself safe and to make sure you get these feelings that you never got and it just adds and piles on, and that's my point. Does that make?

Speaker 1: 1:05:20

sense, yeah, and I agree, and you know the way. I really I don't think that. You know. I know people like rhymes and I like rhymes and people will remember this. So hopefully people will remember this. But here's how I see it. I think it's not trauma. No, not everyone has trauma. Most people don't have trauma, but what everyone has is drama, and I think this distinction of this it's not trauma, it's drama is important in two regards, because everyone has had dramatic events. They have not had traumatic events. And what's interesting about trauma versus drama?

Speaker 1: 1:05:55

Drama is a story. We love drama. We watch it on HBO and TV all the time, and what I like about this is that drama is a story. So you did create a story and everybody has that.

Speaker 1: 1:06:09

A story about love, a story about safety, a story about acceptance, a story about a belonging, a story about freedom, a story about autonomy, a story about growth, a story about authenticity. A drama that happened when you were a kid, when you were an adolescent, when you were a young adulthood, that betrayal when you're in adulthood, that bankruptcy when you're in adulthood, that health scare when you're adulthood that is not necessarily trauma, but it's always drama. So I think people have drama, and here's what else is important about that the story you tell about who you are determines who you are, and so what I think you're doing with this book is you're helping people understand that their drama is what is driving things, not their trauma, and that dramatic story that they may or may not be aware of needs to change in order for their metabolism to follow suit. I don't know how you see it that way.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

Yeah, perfectly said, that's it. That's the foundation of the house. Like that's how I look at it. People are working on building the house on unstable ground because of those belief, structures and things that are not helpful for the biology to work and it could be a stretch, yes for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:07:22

And you can change your diet and exercise patterns and be fine and good, and what I'm saying is that might happen, but if you're not getting better and you're doing everything, you're frustrated as hell. And that's the progress. You got to look in at the foundation of the house, Because if you're building a house on quicksand, it's not going anywhere. As well as going somewhere really fast, it's going to fall apart. It's got to be stable ground, which is why it's about, like we're saying, the change in identity, the change in consciousness, and being curious and learning about this drama that you have, and that's the best way to put it.

Speaker 1: 1:07:52

Like you said, Can I say one more thing before we end? Will you allow me to be a little bit Hopefully the listeners will allow this too and I just have this thought so you, the listeners, can see what you think about this. And obviously, justin and I are super close friends and I don't think I've had this conversation with you yet, but it's been on my mind. You know what I don't quite understand, man, and I just want to get really your feedback and let the listeners hear this To me. You mentioned something, okay, so you, you don't. You do all the things and you're just fine and I go.

Speaker 1: 1:08:22

So I feel like in our society that if you work out and you're fit and you're thin and you're somehow, you somehow think you're just fine, like, like. People just somehow think like oh, and then I just go. Is that really how we're basing human thriving? Are we really going to do this thing? And I think this is exactly what's really how we're basing human thriving. Are we really going to do this thing? And I think this is exactly what's happening.

Speaker 1: 1:08:43

Are we really basing human thriving off the size of our bodies and how fit we are and how well we eat? Because to me, that is not, but the fact that you got results on a diet. That is not human thriving. Human thriving to me is how you show up in a room, how you treat other people. Do you feel like you have meaning and purpose in your life? That's human thriving. So I just want to throw that out, because something that really bothers me about this whole conversation is what is it that? What has happened to us that we think somehow being fit and looking good somehow makes you healthy and a good person and a worthy person? I don't think it does. I don't think some of the most miserable, sad, anxious, depressed people I know are some of the most fit humans I have ever seen, and I do not like the idea that we have somehow seemed to have equated this with human thriving. I don't think it's human thriving at all.

Speaker 2: 1:09:47

It's just flashy and it gets our attention right and it's very surface level. I think that's the point. You know what?

Speaker 1: 1:09:55

it reminds me of dude. It reminds me of the 50-year-old guy going through his midlife crisis, goes out and gets a Ferrari and a 20-year-old girlfriend. It reminds me of that. I'm like you think, because a little vulnerable, because I think I can easily be judged by my audience, and maybe you and I'm not sure. I just really want to open up this conversation. I want to do a whole podcast on it myself, because I just go. I tend to feel bad for someone who feels that way, like if you're basing every because what's going to happen is you will age, you will eventually get sick. Life has a 100% fatality rate. You are not going to be the most handsome, fit, beautiful person in the room and what did your life mean? Because that's really why you write a book, right, like to help people thrive.

Speaker 2: 1:10:52

Right, yeah, exactly right, and I think it's. Health and fitness is a component of longevity and health span, right, but it's not everything. It's actually probably a small part of it, I think. I think there's, and I know you talked about this, but I think the real issue is and I see this with clients too who are stuck with multiple illnesses it's that their psycho-spiritual element of health is non-existent. And that's the issue and that's the. It's like the whole crux of your vitality and your life force. And if you don't have that, I think you're not going to have the best life. And it's not going to necessarily show up, um, right away, but it's going to start to show its teeth later, um, and that's why it's not a. It's going to start to show its teeth later and that's why it's not a. It's also not a very trendy and catchy and sexy thing. It's which is part of the problem and why we don't want to look at this.

Speaker 2: 1:11:48

But I'm just like I, you know, I tell the clients I said because one of the things I do with with clients personally is I work through the physiology and psychology stuff but at the very end we go to the transpersonal side of things and, like. You know, how can you, you know, to what you say all the time and teach about being an excellent human, and it's like well, how do we get to that? Because are you here to work on your health every day, rest of your life, or are you here to actually make an impact and survive and, you know, feel a sense of aliveness and joy? Because that can't happen with your diet and your body image, and that's the whole point of the book is well, we can avoid a lot of these issues if we need to start maybe looking at it from a different lens. And so that's one of the biggest gaps, I think, in health. I think you agree with that.

Speaker 1: 1:12:36

Yeah, I love that perspective and thanks for letting me just air that frustration. And, bro, thank you for your work. Thank you, agree with that. Yeah, I love that perspective and thanks for letting me just air that frustration. And, bro, thank you for your work. Yeah, thank you for the book.

Speaker 1: 1:12:45

For all of you, it's the post-dieting comeback. It's available on Amazon. You can find it. Are you putting it in the audio book? I'm working on it, by the way. So, just so you all know, I actually just found a new AI tool called Speechify. Some of you may know that if you buy a book on Kindle, you load it up into this AI and it reads it for you. So now, even though your book is not available on audio, because Justin knows I like to listen to all my books. So, thank you for your work, brother, keep it up. Congratulations on the new book and thank you for letting me vent a little bit at the end. And, all of you, thank you for putting up with me. Yeah, man, where can they find you? Tell them where they can get you. I know you know Justin spends a lot of time on Instagram, but where?

Speaker 2: 1:13:30

else it's mostly Instagram. It's just my whole name, Justin Janoska J-A-N-O-S-K-A, and that's where I talk about all these kinds of things and more.

Speaker 1: 1:13:48

At Justin Janoska on Instagram. He does a really good job of educating constantly, so definitely follow him. I follow him there. If you want to find him, you can go to my feed. Just look who I follow and you'll get Justin. And I'm lucky because my boy's mostly in Asheville now.