Speaker 1: 1:25

What's going on everybody? Welcome to the Next Level Human podcast. I am your host and I'm actually here today with my co-author, danny Coleman. Danny is a master level coach in the personal development space. He is also a premier expert in leadership, doing corporate trainings in that world. We actually wrote a book together this book right here called Tribe, which is one of my favorite books that I've written, and we're actually going to talk a little bit about this book in a sense.

Speaker 1: 1:57

But what I want to do is get Danny on, have a conversation, and one of the things we were just talking about before we came on is what should we cover? And one of the interesting things about Danny I think this about him he kind of sees me this way. Of course, neither one of us will own this, but it's funny because he sees me this way and I see him this way is that we're each people who we go to for help. So usually there's not many people in my life who I really want to talk to or I will open up to. When I'm dealing with stuff, I usually am the person that people come to for help, but Danny is one of the few that I go to and Danny feels the same about me and we're talking about this idea is why is that certain people actually feel compelled to be around other people? We talked about it in this book, danny, if you remember in the beginning that when I was a kid, I used to be fascinated by why were some of my teachers in elementary school really well-liked, why some weren't, why some of my classmates were picked on, why some weren't. What was it? It was like this energetic thing that I couldn't quite put my finger on and that followed me into adulthood. And it's really interesting, right? Because now it's the career that you and I have is really trying to understand the dynamics of individuals. And so I'll just start us out with the statement that you made.

Speaker 1: 3:24

There's this idea that when you run into somebody or you meet somebody or you have a friend, that we're each unique and individual, and this will be my first sort of question to you, danny, or statement to see where you want to go with this. We're all individuals and you might say well, what is it about, jade or Danny or me, that makes me unique? And, you know, makes people attracted to me or not attracted to me, makes people feel good around me or not good around me makes people want to come to me for advice or go to someone else. And I think, really it's three things, and I want to see what you think about this, dan.

Speaker 1: 3:56

I think it's the energy we bring right, like there's an energy that when someone walks into a room, you feel it right, and we humans don't oftentimes think about this, but even if you're in a room, when someone comes in, even if they say nothing, it changes the energy of the room if you're paying attention.

Speaker 1: 4:14

So we each come with a particular energy, right. We also, as we begin to engage and people talk to us, and the way we animate and just the way we move about, we are a particular experience as well. Right, we create an experience in the room. So it's not just our energy, but it starts to become a full experience. And then, of course, we have the ability to set a particular example as well. We can be inspiring and we can influence, and so I think it comes down to this sort of there's a particular energetic, there's a particular sort of experience that we bring. And then there's this sort of example that we set, and I want to unpack this with you and get your thoughts around why is this and how do we cultivate this in a positive way, perhaps to be more effective in our personal relationships and also positively impact people.

Speaker 2: 5:09

Yeah, I love this. This is your phrase and this is about to be a hostile takeover. Man, I'm about to get Jade on my podcast. Right now, we're going to do a swap. Welcome to Take Care Radio everyone. This is a hostile takeover, but I love this phrase that you have you say as human beings, we are an experience, and that, to me, captures everything you were just talking about. It encapsulates the energy, it encapsulates the example, it encapsulates everything that we say and everything we emote. It reminds me of that. Maya Angelou quote Maya Angelou Winston-Salem native. Shout out Winston-Salem as you are. Yeah, sort of Winston-Salem native. Shout out Winston-Salem as you are. Yeah, sort of Winston-Salem native right, were you born there?

Speaker 1: 5:52

No, you're born in New York. Definitely grew up there. Definitely grew up there. I grew up in Winston, yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:56

Yeah, I knew that. Maya Angelou that quote people will forget what you said, they will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel. And that quote, I think it's a guiding quote in a lot of my work. I work with a lot of leaders and I teach this concept called emotional contagion. You know I love my psychology books, man, and one of my favorite concepts I've ever come across is they're able to measure this. They're able to measure how contagious our energy is, how contagious our emotion is.

Speaker 2: 6:23

There's this thing called mirror neurons and I know you're familiar, Jade, but just for the audience, these mirror neurons, they can actually see these areas of the brain firing off when somebody does something. For example, if I yawn, the same centers in your brain to get you to yawn. That's why yawning is so contagious, or laughter is so contagious. A lot of these things there's something in like this is like the 15th century. Have you heard of this dude In France, this lady? I don't know what was wrong with her. She starts just dancing in the middle of the street.

Speaker 2: 6:52

Oh, I've heard about this yet, yeah, for like an hour just dancing, and then all of a sudden another guy starts dancing. This is a true thing, this is a true phenomenon. This is how they always describe neurons and things like that. Then all of a sudden, the entire town square is dancing for hours and hours and hours, and it's crazy to me that that is how contagious we are and how connected we are as human beings.

Speaker 2: 7:16

So I always love this phrase that you have is that you are an experience, and we work with a lot of professionals who coach other people, who lead other people, and it's so much more potent when we're in that position of authority too. So if I'm a leader, my emotions are going to be 10x more contagious just because of the dynamic there, or romantic relationships is going to be a lot more contagious than to a stranger. So the closer you get, the more there's a dynamic, there's more dynamic of power, the more influential, the more contagious you're going to be. So I always kind of joke when I'm training these like leaders, managers, I go leaders don't get the luxury of having a bad day, you just don't. And that doesn't mean I say that tongue in cheek, it doesn't mean you can't make up for it. It doesn't mean you can't apologize. It doesn't mean you can't be in a bad mood every once in a while. But on some level as a leader or if you just want, just for self-development you want to be a better experience for other people. You do have to be a little bit better at emotional regulation. You do have to be a little bit more energetic and bring the energy into the room.

Speaker 2: 8:15

I'm all over the place right now, j. It's reminding me of when you used to train metabolic effect classes back in the day and you used to teach on this. Remember you used to teach as a personal trainer, as a group instructor. The number one thing is you have to bring energy, you have to project, you have to be big, you have to just demonstrate authority, because that's how you influence and move people, and that was one of the most impactful things that stuck with me.

Speaker 2: 8:40

Now that I teach courses, now that I do these workshops, I got to show up with some energy and bring it, because it's that contagious. So that's sort of setting the stage on my side of what I want to talk about as well. We contagious, so that's sort of setting the stage on my side of what I wanted to talk about as well. We're saying the same thing here, but you, jade I brought this up because it's funny it feels like everyone in our life. We share a lot of the same circle and everybody in our life comes to you for help, man. They're like I'm having a bad day, I'm going to call Jade I joked before we got on. When I'm having a bad day, I think about calling you, but then I'm having a bad day, I think about calling you, but then I'm like nah, this dude's already talked to coach 10 people today.

Speaker 2: 9:10

So when it comes to that's sort of what I want to break down in this podcast, what are the elements of this? So if we establish, yes, you're an experience, and your emotions and your state is really contagious, how do you change that state and how do you just become a more positive experience? I would love your thoughts on, yeah, the how, how more positive experience. I would love your thoughts on, yeah, the how. How do we sort of create that? What if I'm not that Jay? What if I'm boring? Or what if people don't really gravitate towards me, et cetera?

Speaker 1: 9:35

Yeah, well, you know, that is why I want to have this conversation with you as well, because you and I both read psychology research all the time, and so I'm going to give my answer and then, of course, I want to hear yours as well. I'm not exactly sure, to be honest, right Like I don't have like a definitive answer on this, but I have, you know, an informed, a little bit of informed education from just research. You know stuff that you and I know research on charisma and research on emotions and other things like that. It also is guesswork, just like one of the most popular books that was ever written, like how to Win Friends and Influence People, that wasn't based on research, it was just based on observation, and so, as we're having this discussion, I'll try to be as evidence-based as I can, but I'm not so sure this lends itself well to that. Also, I do want to say this that statement we are an experience. I got that from my friend, roxy Safai. I was interviewing her once and she said that and it really stuck with me where she was like I just see myself that wherever I go, I can create a particular experience with the way that I show up, and so she said that I choose to cultivate the experience that I bring and to bring that experience with intention. And then all we're saying now is saying, well, it's not just your experience, but it's the example you set and the energy you bring. All of that sort of goes into that. And I'll say a couple things here that I think what makes the difference.

Speaker 1: 11:11

Well, first of all, I think and I know many people don't necessarily share this For example, there are many prominent psychologists. The one I'm thinking about right now is Jordan Peterson, who I once heard say that he doesn't think compassion should be high up on someone's value hierarchy, or that it wasn't on his. And I remember thinking to myself that blows my mind because, from my perspective, the people that I think we all sort of gravitate towards and love are people who are very compassionate in the way that they see us. In other words, we don't feel judged. So when we don't feel judged, these are people that we want to go and sit with. Anytime we feel judged, we will move away from that and or not sort of open up to sharing anything. So I feel like one of the things is people who don't have judgment for others, and I tried my best to do that. As a matter of fact, I kind of was lucky because I have parents my mother and my father who are incredibly nonjudgmental with individuals.

Speaker 1: 12:23

So I have two rules that I think encapsulate this idea of compassion and non-judgment, and that, to me, is number one the human rule right, which essentially means that, no matter what you say to me, I come at this from a place that go, all of us humans are dysfunctional. None of us are gurus. There's no such thing as a guru in my mind. If you're a guru and there's you probably wouldn't need to be on in human school to begin with with, because you'd have everything figured out. So to me, I go we're all humans and as humans, we all suffer and we all have dysfunctions. None of us knows everything. All of us have something that we can offer.

Speaker 1: 12:59

So the first thing is seeing people as humans and just being like look, you're not alone in this, you're only human. Something happens when you say something to someone. You're only human. Something happens when you say something to someone. Let's be like look, you're only human. You don't always say it that way, but you go, you know what? I have friends that have gone through this. I mean, I see what's happened, it's only normal. You're not crazy, man, like you're not crazy for feeling this way, right?

Speaker 1: 13:22

That first thing is part of it, right, because and by the way it establishes over time, when you just go, I trust that whatever I show up and tell this person, they're not going to come at me and judge me. In a way they're not judging, they're simply just going. This is a human who's going through a tough time. And then there's compassion on top of that, which is sort of the rule of empathy or the rule of compassion, which essentially goes I don't necessarily have an experience, this but I can't imagine what it must be like for you, and I can't because, even if I've experienced the exact same thing, I don't exactly know how it's going to be for Danny. So for me, I think these are the starting points, right. And then the final thing I'll say, and I want to just get your sense on all three of these components, this idea of the human role and this idea of, you know, sort of compassion.

Speaker 1: 17:01

And the next thing is I think it's authenticity. You know, because I think you know people pick up on the energy of inauthenticity, right, like, for example, you say we're an experience and an example and an energetic sort of thing. You know we bring an energetic experience and example to the world. But if it's an inauthentic energetic experience and example for the world, for whatever reason, we humans sniff that out. We sniff it out like a dog sniffing out a bone, like we see it from a mile away, and it is very off-putting.

Speaker 1: 17:38

Now I don't know what this is, I just know I do think it's got to truly be authentic. It can't be this thing where it's like, oh, you're only human and oh, I can't imagine, and it's not authentic at all. It has to be sort of heartfelt, and there is some interesting research out of the Heart Math Institute that shows that we do so. The electromagnetic fields of the hearts of individuals can't do overlap, so the electromagnetic fields of the hearts of individuals can't do overlap, they extend out of the body and they overlap. So is it possible that we are actually picking up on that authentic, heartfelt emotion when we're talking to people?

Speaker 2: 18:15

So these would be the places that I would start, and I'm really interesting to know how you see this yeah, I mean, obviously I come from the next level human school with jay tita, so there's a lot of overlap here. You know, it's funny. The one thing I wrote down before you said I was like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna add to this and it's gonna be authenticity, because I, authenticity is the third key piece, one because, you're right, people can sniff out when you're being insecure, insincere and probably insecure, but when you're being insincere, for sure they can sniff that out. I also think there's an element of polarization.

Speaker 2: 18:52

When you're authentic, when you're authentic, you inherently are going to be polarizing. You're inherently going to be different. You're inherently going to be interesting to people because you're not just the same. What do you say? Ball games, ball games and burgers. Ball games, beers and burgers like that's pretty, that's a pretty normal cultural level thing, like and I, by the way, nothing wrong with that, I love ball games, I love burgers I love beers I love, I love the triple threat, but I think if you can add something that is that is authentic, authentically you, on top of that, you can still.

Speaker 2: 19:27

You can still kind of stand out and I just think that's interesting to people. So I actually don't have much to add. I I think a lot of my take care listeners they joke at me because you get a shout out on every podcast. So I use a lot of your material, use a lot of your material, use a lot of your frameworks. Obviously, man, we spent so much time together that it comes out. But I do think the authenticity piece is not just about being sincere. It's actually just makes you more compelling of an experience too. Right, if you're just a little bit different. We all have a very unique story and maybe that's where we take this discussion is the who we are story and how that's sort of created and the power of that. I just read Charles Duhigg's new book. He's the power of habit guy. You heard he had a new book out, the super communicators book. I saw it.

Speaker 1: 20:09

And I thought you'd be on that way before I am. I ate that. I'm about to go through it again.

Speaker 2: 20:13

It's up my alley. I don't know if it's good, but it's good for me. And one of the things he says we all have a who we are story and when we can really embody that, that makes us inherently interesting. It makes connecting easier because we're going to draw in people who are authentically like us and we can slowly build a circle of friends from there. So maybe we kind of go into how we identify the who we are story. We can talk about that.

Speaker 2: 20:38

But I think the only thing I would add to what you say is authenticity isn't just being about sincere, it's also being about, yeah, like be be you, be what you're into, be not what you're not into. Like I don't, like I don't like rock music. I'll be with a lot of dudes Like I love this rock music and I I authentically got simple things Like these are benign things but little elements like that. But again, I'm not really into that. Yeah, it's not really my style. Saying no, I think, is a really powerful authenticity tool. So I don't know, I have a small spin on what you said. Otherwise, I'm doubling down on everything. Definitely the human rule. That was the most powerful thing that you and Jill did for me back when I moved in with you guys.

Speaker 2: 21:14

I remember I harbored a lot of stuff I was just ashamed of, I was just ashamed of, I was embarrassed about it. I was like I wouldn't tell anybody and then I would share a little bit with you guys and you would go that's so normal, I've been there, we've all been there, and then I would share a little bit more with you guys and all of a sudden that shame started to evaporate a little bit. And what's interesting, once I felt normal. No-transcript. It's that Carl Rogers quote the first stage of change is acceptance, or whatever that quote is. But I double down on everything you say, man.

Speaker 1: 22:00

Yeah, yeah, I love the authenticity piece, actually the next level, human coaching. When we coach individuals and when I train our coaches, this is the primary thing. This is what I think people don't understand there's never been another human like you, danny, and like me, jade, and like you, the listener, ever in the history of humanity, ever, nor will there ever be again. That viewpoint immediately opens up an interesting perspective when you realize I am solely unique. Not only am I unique, there's never been me, nor will there ever be me again. And what happens is that's the starting point. But as soon as we begin to disavow our story that's the starting point, but as soon as we begin to disavow our story, that becomes a block to authenticity. And as soon as we're blocking authenticity, no one actually ever gets to know us. And so I have this theory that, because we're not truly being ourselves, no one actually ever gets to know us. And I have this theory that maybe is not true at all, but energetically, I think humans understand that. I think somehow they know that there's something I'm not being told and it doesn't quite feel safe with this person. It doesn't feel all encompassing, it doesn't feel real and therefore I'm going to hold back. I think this is one of the first stages, and so this idea of the who you are story, this story we tell, this story, by the way, is very inaccurate for a lot of people. And it's inaccurate for a lot of people because they don't want to share fully or they look at their struggles and they see them as something that shouldn't be, something that they are out with people or share with people. But not sharing your struggles makes it look like you don't have any, makes it look like you're not human and you are no longer relatable. So one of the things that I think I have always done is that when someone shares with me this human rule and this empathy rule, the next thing I do and again, this is stuff that I picked up from my mother is I do sort of two sort of social chess moves that you and I wrote about in Tribe, and to me, the first chess move is self-deprecation. Now, one of the things that happens here is a lot of people hear self-deprecation and they hear weakness, especially men, but it's self-deprecation without weakness. In other words, it's not taking your power away. It's just essentially saying I'm human too. It's self-deprecating and being like I'm on your level, because we humans, we want our status to be equal or a little bit above the next person. So the first chess move psychological chess move is I'm just like you, I also mess up. And the next one is to compliment freely and also authentically, which is to basically say you are powerful in this way authentically, which is to basically say you are powerful in this way, not in a way of blowing smoke or something like that, and that allows people to and I think you said it best it allows people to step more fully into their authenticity. It's almost like they have freedom to be more of who they are and if they see you owning your story right Like.

Speaker 1: 29:07

One of the things that was the hardest for me is talking about my affair. You know my dumb, jock sort of period when I was young, feeling like I wasn't smart, feeling like I wanted to hide my anger or my insecurity around being bullied by my brother, maybe, or all the different things that I thought made me weak. It made me weak, actually, in hindsight, as I've owned them one by one over my life. That is what makes me solid in the eyes of other people, and I think when you do this two-part chess move. Hey, I'm only human, I'm no better than you. And two, you're pretty wonderful in these ways. What that does is allow people to step up and be more in their power. And I'll say two other things about that.

Speaker 1: 29:55

If we go back to childhood development and the story of who's who, the first key needs from the ages of zero to six years old this is very clear in the research are safety and security needs. And if those safety and security needs aren't solid, we go around looking for those safety and security needs, doing all kinds of dysfunctional things, mainly chasing power and trying to control. So we all know people who have to control every little thing. They're the backseat driver, they need to have everything planned out or they chase power. When you don't have safety and security, you start controlling things and you chase power. By the way, we all know this turns people off, right, whenever someone's trying to always come over the top with their power I'm better than you or control situations. All of us are turned off by that. We get wrapped up into their control. Freak energy, right, and that's an off-putting energy.

Speaker 1: 30:43

And then the next thing is in adolescence we move from safety and security needs to mainly acceptance and belonging needs, safety and security needs, to mainly acceptance and belonging needs.

Speaker 1: 30:53

And if those things are stunted in a way, then we chase popularity and we do popularity seeking and peacocking, which again is just hey, look at me, look how tough I am, or look how pretty I am, or look how many all this materialistic stuff I have, and again, people see right through that because they just go that's a facade, we see it, we just don't see it within ourselves and so, again, this is repulsive sort of energy.

Speaker 1: 31:18

So I do think, when we talk about this idea and I do think it's really nice the way you phrase that your who you are, story or the history of who you are it must be owned, and the degree to which our coping mechanisms are authentic and solid and we can help others feel safe and secure and accepted and belonging because we feel that way, is the degree to which people will want to attach to us, because essentially all they're looking for is a model to be like. You know, am I okay? And is there anyone in this world? I can actually feel safe being myself around and, by the way, I don't know how all of you all feel who are listening to this, but I'm going to say right now I think most people don't feel safe with other people and therefore they cannot be themselves, and I think the people who make others feel safe are so incredibly rare that when they're there, they are liked by a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 32:15

Yeah, that's well put and I think you're speaking to something we've talked about in the past. A lot is kind of lowering your status and elevating other people's status as well. We know that status is one of the core needs of the human brains. We are from back in the Savannah days is one of the core needs of the human brains we are from back in the Savannah days. Status is a big deal. We're constantly vying and jockeying to have elevated status and that's why, when we get into a room so often and we feel like no one's looking at me, no one's paying attention to me, we have to all of a sudden elevate ourselves and become something that maybe we're not just to get out there, just to be seen.

Speaker 2: 32:50

There's a little anecdote about I'm going to butcher this, I'm not a good storyteller like our man Ray Hynda, shout out. But there's this little girl. It's an anecdote. This little girl is out to lunch with her dad and the waiter comes by and goes what will you have for dinner, little girl? And the girl goes I will have all of your cookies, please. And the father goes no, she'll have chicken and vegetables. And the waiter goes and looks at the little girl and goes, looks at the father and says would you like milk with your cookies? Sweetheart Walks away and the little girl is looking shocked, looks at her dad, goes, she sees me and dad's like kind of like what are you talking about? But on some level we're all kind of that little girl. Yes, I just compare both of us to that little girl. We all just want to be seen, we all just want to be like am I important, do I matter? And that's. I love that little anecdote because it's funny.

Speaker 2: 33:49

You do this with grown adults too and just go I see you and elevate their status just a little bit. Now to your point. It has to be sincere. You can't be like Jade, you're an amazing basketball player, you're the greatest I've ever seen. If that's not the case, right, that's not how you elevate status. But you can do it in little ways, like you're speaking to, by lowering your status, by saying I've been there too, I've been through tough times too, I've suffered too, and elevating their status. Wow, it's actually really impressive how well you've moved through this. It's amazing how you've handled this. I'm just so impressed. That's one of my favorite coaching strategies to do. I wouldn't even call it a strategy.

Speaker 2: 34:26

You hear people's stories in coaching and they go through some hard stuff and just acknowledging like, just so, you know that's really hard. I don't even feel comfortable talking about vegetables and squats right now, like you're dealing with some tough stuff. You're kind of in survival mode and you can see their shoulders come down. They're like, yeah, I am, I am. It's to your point about safety and security. But I love both of those points. If you can just make people feel seen and then just elevate their status a little bit by lowering your own just a little bit, people are going to want to be around you to kind of bring it full circle back to being an experience. So I think those tools working together are really powerful. But that's the essence of it. Status is a need of the human brain. If you lower yours and elevate others, people just love being around you and ironically, they stop fighting. Like fighting. Look at me, look at me, see me, see me, look at my accomplishments, look at my accomplishments. They relax and they just kind of become themselves. So I think that was a really important point that I wanted to touch on and I think we can we can kind of transition into maybe how to even identify the authenticity piece.

Speaker 2: 35:29

I think that's a hard part, that when most people talk about authenticity, people are like I don't even know who I am. And I would say there's. There's really two parts before you can even begin to grow. One is just self-awareness, which is really hard for people Like I. Always I was sort of shit on personality tests because if you take a personality test they are inherently they're self-evaluations and we are really bad at evaluating ourselves. So you get something that's just not, probably not true and probably not consistent, because if I'm feeling in a good mood today I'm going to be one personality and if I'm a bad mood tomorrow I'm going to be in a different personality. So I don't love personality tests for this.

Speaker 2: 39:40

But first part of the formula is self-awareness. I think so many people out there are like I don't even know myself. I've been playing this culture game, as you would call it, for so long that I feel like I've lost who I am and the who I am story and what I stand for and what I believe. And I think that's the first step. Before you can even get to self-acceptance and the stuff we were talking about, you have to get to self-awareness and I think that's really a difficult challenge. I remember early on, early 20s, being around you, being around Jill again, and I remember thinking like the first part is understanding what I think and the second part was communicating it. So I went through this whole process where I'm trying to figure out, all right, what exactly do I think, what exactly do I stand for? That was hard enough. And then I started saying it out loud and what was in my brain never came out of my mouth ever. It came out like googlygook and I'm like that's not what I meant, that's not what I meant at all. So there's this process of self-awareness that is.

Speaker 2: 40:34

It's not a light switch, dude, it's sort of. I love the Michael, I call it the Michelangelo model. He has that quote about the statue of David. It's like the statue was already there. I just released it from the marble. That, to me, is how human development works. It's not a light switch where you just get to flip something and now I'm self-aware and now I'm in growth mode. It's more of a chisel, chisel, chisel, chisel, chisel, until David is sort of revealed from the marble. So my question on this is sort of again the how? Where do we begin? How do we begin this self-awareness process? I have a couple thoughts on the matter, but I definitely, if it's cool, transition into this dude. So it's basically we are an experience, but how do we even identify the experience that we are? I guess is the question to stay on theme here.

Speaker 1: 41:17

Yeah, well, you know, in the next level human model, the first two principles that you must master are perception and ownership. So I'll start there. So you know, the definition of being like a human being is being. When you're being something, it is alignment and thinking, feeling, choosing and acting right. So that's your, when you're aligned there, that's your authenticity. You can't be unaligned in thinking, feeling, choosing and acting. What people don't understand is they're as they're developing, though, they focus on being, but they don't realize that there's one thing that comes before thinking, feeling, choosing and acting Before you can think, feel, choose and act differently, you have to see the world accurately, right. And if you want to change, you're going to have to see the world differently. This is why perception is the most important thing that any human can master. So it's perception first. And, by the way, you said you know who we are, who you are and who we are. Who we are is who we've been and what we've done and who we're becoming and what we will do. That's who we are Right. And so if you neglect, if you disavow who you were and what you did and what happened in the past, what happened to me, how I responded to that you are essentially disavowing your authenticity and therefore, in my mind, you can't actually go forward and be who you're supposed to be. Every piece of your story must be owned. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be shared, but I do believe it must be owned, it must be integrated into you, and that's most of the work of therapy and coaching comes down to integrating past things that people simply are not able to integrate. They will blame, they will complain, they will distract, they will deny, they will wimp and they will whine, but they will not change. So the first thing is to see that those things, all those things that you did, were useful in what you can now do. That's the first thing. If you cannot make that stage, you cannot become your next level human self. You will always be stuck in a past self, and people talk about this authenticity a lot. To me they get this wrong in self-development. It's not authentic to a past self and not authentic to a current self, but authentic to your next level human future self. But in order to be authentic to your next level human future self, you do have to integrate who you were and who you are, but you can't stay there. So that's the first thing, and that all is about perception. I was then, and with this mix, I am now going to write down, stamp in the ground, take my flag and say this is who I will now be. Out of all the things I've learned, all the struggles, all the difficulties, I will now be this and I will move forward with this, and that's how you become authentic.

Speaker 1: 44:22

And one other thing I'll say here is that, to me, one of the number one things if you really want to know what people do, what they're really doing when people feel safe around them is it's all about emotions. It's what they're doing with their emotions. They have emotional integrity, they have emotional regulation and they are able to use emotional alchemy. In other words, when you're around someone who has emotional regulation and they're stable, in other words, you're coming to them with an emotional problem and they can stay centered without getting emotional back. That's a person you're going to want to go to, because what you're doing is you're coming with a storm and this person is acting as this giant rock that the storm is just ramming itself against, and they are unfazed and this allows you to feel like, no matter what I come to this person with. They're my rock, they're my safe place. The storm doesn't batter them and that's because they owned all their past struggles and stuff and they decided who they're going to be and therefore their emotions are their emotions and your emotions are your emotions, so they are very emotionally regulated. That feels very safe when you're with someone who's emotionally regulated.

Speaker 1: 45:38

Think about, in romance, what people say. Men will say I want a woman who can nourish me and nurture me. Women are like I want someone who makes me feel safe and secure. They'll even use terms like I want daddy energy. You hear that around a lot. Well, what is a strong father? A strong father is someone whose emotions are regulated and you can show up with your stuff and they're just solid for you. They just show up for you.

Speaker 1: 46:06

Now the final piece is emotional alchemy, which also means they can take anger and feel it and deal with it and not express it and turn it into motivation and drive, or they can. You know, emotional. There's also this idea of emotional appropriateness. You know there's also this idea of emotional appropriateness. You know, if you're sad and it's not the appropriate place to cry, you can handle that, be emotionally regulated and cry when it becomes, you know, necessary. So I do think what we're really talking about is someone's ability to emotionally regulate, be an emotional integrity, have emotional appropriateness and also be able to alchemize their emotions. When we have someone that is just solid emotionally, we're like okay, this is my person, I can always go to them, they're always going to be there for me.

Speaker 1: 46:53

But in order to have that emotional control, you cannot disavow your past. You cannot. You have to master perception and ownership, the process, in fact, of going through these struggles. That is the whole process that gets you to this emotional point where you're solid, and if you avoid the struggle, you can't become emotionally solid. And, by the way, you talked about being an experience for the world. Well, that's kind of what emotional alchemy is right. Once you have emotional alchemy, you wake up in the morning and you can go. I feel like shit, or I'm sad, or I've got. You know, I'm grieving, or whatever it is, and I go. I got work to do, though, and so I feel this and I can do this, and that is an incredibly powerful tool set that almost very few humans have.

Speaker 2: 47:43

Yeah, dude, this is great. Actually, this is perfect because I have this workshop coming up, a small workshop with relatively new leaders and managers, and I'm kicking off this workshop, sort of talking about perception. I'm talking about mindsets and I come to five mindsets of effective leadership essentially, and two of them are exactly what you're talking about. The first is that well, let me back up, my big theme is like we put leadership on the pedestal, like it's fun, that it's easy, that you just carry all the influence and power. But leadership is heavy man, and it's not fun oftentimes and it's lonely at the top oftentimes and it's a lot of pressure and the standards are higher and all of these things that are it's a lot of work, like it's actually not all, just all good, all good all the time at the top and the leadership thing. So I'm trying to flip some of these leadership mindsets to be like, actually it is hard, but because it's hard, that's why it's valuable. And there's two things that I thought of. Two of the mindsets I thought of when you're kind of sharing exactly what you were sharing, and they're right in line.

Speaker 2: 48:47

One is that the leader needs to be the most certain in the room. That's a big one. The leader needs to be most certain in the room. It speaks to that being the rock in that when those tidal waves are coming through. And when you say be the loudest, I don't mean that you just say stuff with the most conviction, I don't mean that you just never make a mistake or never fail or never apologize. That's not what it means to be certain. What it means to be certain is to be the most credible in the room. How do you get to be the most credible in the room? Well, on one hand, you have to be competent, you have to be good at what you do. That's just a matter of fact in leadership. But the other piece of this is that you do have to be, you have to have strong integrity. When I say integrity, I don't necessarily mean moral, I mean more how a civil engineer defines integrity. The second definition of integrity is to be unimpaired, sound in structure, like a bridge, that kind of integrity like the rock in the ocean, the way you do. That is exactly what you're saying, this emotional alchemy I just use the word emotional regulation, but I like alchemy a lot. That's exactly what it is being able to understand, process and digest emotions in appropriate contextual ways. That is so powerful and people look up to that like crazy. It's exactly what you said. So I'm feeling encouraged. I think that's exactly. I like the rock in the storm metaphor. I think that's exactly what it is.

Speaker 2: 50:11

The other mindset I talk a lot about is the one I started this podcast, which is that as a leader, your energy is really contagious. So I had this boss once short stint at this marketing agency and this guy would something big, would go on at the market like a big deal would happen. We would lose a big customer and he'd be like no big deal, we're all good, it's totally fine. And then the next day there would be an email that was like seven minutes there in the queue for seven minutes not a long time and he would burst out of the office like a crazy person and run and be like there's no emails, what's going on, what is everyone doing? Just the unpredictable energy of that and what do you think the office was like? It was unpredictable, it was inconsistent, it was a little erratic and that all fed off of his energy. So being a leader, just being a human experience you got to be solid, you have to be the one, and that's heavy man. That's really hard. It's much easier said than done to do this stuff. And the last thing that I sort of wrote down that you reminded me of I was reading about, freud had the concept of catharsis, something that's cathartic and we assume in the West, or in America specifically, we think well, a cathartic experience that's like you go into these rec rooms you ever see these days with like a sledgehammer and you just smash a bus or smash a TV or it's like just venting.

Speaker 2: 51:32

That's cathartic. And this guy was James Pennebaker. He's the guy the Pennebaker writing exercise. If you don't know what that is, you should look that up. It's a really powerful exercise. He's a professor at UT and he was talking about this and he said but that's not what Europeans, that's not what Freud meant when he meant cathartic. A cathartic experience is actually what you're talking about, jade. It's being able to understand and attach meaning to our emotions. So we feel the emotions. It's not just about expressing them, it's about understanding them, it's about processing them, it's about attaching them to our past, attaching to our story, attaching to our future purpose. So a cathartic experience is not just an outpour. It's actually more like a puzzle. It's when you take the emotion and you match it with the appropriate information. That's what a really powerful cathartic experience is, which does make us feel better and is more growth oriented. So I thought that was a little tidbit to share on top of what you were talking about as well.

Speaker 1: 52:25

Yeah, I like that a lot and I also think you know we're talking about emotions and this whole idea. I think we also get emotions wrong when we talk about them. You know, I don't think and this is sort of even in the space where you know you get into this male, female ways of you know dealing with emotions and a lot of women will say, well, the man's not vulnerable enough or he needs to express his emotions more. And a lot of men will pin being emotionally volatile on women. And the interesting thing is you'll find men and women who both have this really figured out. Well, and when you have it figured out emotionally, what ends up happening is these individuals will feel an emotion but do not have to express the emotion. And I think we get that wrong. Right, we think, because we feel an emotion, that it automatically needs to be expressed, and it's not always appropriate to express an emotion in a particular way. But they will eventually let it out.

Speaker 1: 53:22

But I think what you're talking about it's far more nuanced. You know you don't just feel sad and then break down crying. You got certain things to do. The example I like to use is like a warrior in battle right, if they're fighting the battle. That's the task at hand. It's not appropriate to cry at that point, Like, let's say, you see your buddy fall, right, you don't cry there, otherwise you're going to fall or more of your buddies are going to fall. So what you have to do is you have to stay focused on the job at hand. Now, when the battle's over, now it's appropriate to cry.

Speaker 1: 53:52

We don't have this nuanced sort of discussion, and I do think that the individuals we go to that we trust, are the ones who are most in control of their emotional states Not suppressing their emotional states, but in control of their emotional states. They get to decide whether it's appropriate for that emotion to be sort of expressed. And individuals who don't have emotional regulation are oftentimes stiff-armed by many people their friends, their family, their work, et cetera and we don't know why. But that's why Someone needs to do an entire course. Well, we do. You know Next Level Human. We do the coaching on this. We teach you how to regulate your emotions. But there should be, you know, this stuff should be taught in elementary school, right? Then you know, like, how to deal with emotions.

Speaker 1: 54:43

Emotions are meant to be felt, not lived. People get stuck in their emotions and they get controlled by their emotions. So now you're stuck in an emotion and you're controlled by an emotion. This is not being vulnerable. This is not healthy. What you want to be is you want to be able to freely express your emotions when it is appropriate and to control them and not suppress them at any state.

Speaker 1: 55:06

I'm not saying take in sadness and leave it there. I'm saying take in sadness, be in sadness. You don't have to express it and when it's appropriate, when you feel like it's appropriate to do that, you can let that out. And, by the way, the degree to which we have people around us who will allow us to express that is the degree to which I think we develop even healthier emotional regulation as men. As you know, how many people we hear this all the time right now, how many people do you think would be comfortable truly with you crying as a man in this culture, with you crying as a man in this culture, right? How many men are actually comfortable with that? And the degree to which we become comfortable ourselves and we choose partners and friends who would be comfortable with that is a degree to which I think we figure this out and get more healthy with this, but I do think it does come down to this emotional state, because if you're not emotionally regulated, you won't be able to do the human role. You won't be able to do the law of empathy. You know what you'll do if you're not emotionally regulated. You'll think very wrongly but you'll think I'm not going to give that to them. They're going to just take that and run with it. This is what people who are not emotionally regulated or not in their power do. They don't want to give anyone a compliment because they're afraid they're going to get the big head. But people who are emotionally regulated, that doesn't bother them at all. They also are not too torn up about people who don't like them, like that book that you had me read way back the Courage to be Disliked.

Speaker 1: 56:36

People who are emotionally regulated have courage, because think about what courage is. Courage is fear, this emotion that you have that could easily control you and keep you stuck, and the ability to feel the fear and take a step towards it anyway. That's courage, right, and that's emotional regulation. Now, who wouldn't want courage? But we're never taught what that means and what's the most inspirational thing that you could have. It's courage. It's courage and I do think when we bring this experience and the example and this energy to the world, that's essentially what we are bringing to people. We're teaching them. This is how you have courage, and when we watch someone have courage, it engenders us with more courage, and I think that is really what we're talking about it engenders us with more courage, and I think that is really what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 57:32

Yeah, that's a key distinction. I definitely am not or was not advocating that to be a positive experience, to be that rock in the ocean that you need to suppress or ignore your emotions. It's a bell-shaped curve, right, I think. For a long time, I think for most of human history probably, but especially through World War I, world War II, there was an issue of emotional suppression. I've talked to my father about this, who's a Vietnam veteran. He went to a therapist but he wouldn't tell anybody. That was very frowned upon to analyze or assess or learn how to regulate. He grew up in the Northeast tough environment, went to Vietnam. His dad was a World War II vet and all these World War II vets in his neighborhood were just so dysfunctional. They're dysfunctional alcoholics or they are excessively violent or it leaks out in some way. And then you had the 60s and I think there was a good correction where it's like no, it started to become a more emotionally expressive culture, emotionally free culture, just live, laugh, love, whatever those 60s sayings are, and I think that carried into the self-esteem movement in the 90s, like be yourself, be expressive however you feel is good is okay. And now I think we're finally kind of coming over that curve where the pendulum has maybe swung a little bit too far, where our feelings are not facts, our feelings are not who we are. They are a wave of an experience that passed through us. They can provide us direction. They're incredibly useful. That's what you're talking about the emotional regulation. So yeah, I'm definitely not saying, to be that anchor, to be that rock in the ocean, you need to be beyond emotions. That's not what we're saying at all, but it's interesting. Now we are in a time where I do think now people are pushing that pendulum back the other way a little bit. Being like, okay, it's gotten a little out of hand with some of the evidence with therapy, is actually just excessive rumination now People aren't getting better in therapy and we're just trying to push it back to the center a little bit to say, no, definitely be expressive, definitely, definitely, process, definitely regulate your emotional experience, but bring it back to the middle, to where it's just not. Your identity and your, your entire code of who you are, have this, have this balance in between. So I think that's a good correction that you made.

Speaker 2: 59:39

I do have a question for you, sort of, and we can wrap up if you want, jay, but one question used to have the. I'm curious if you still stand by it. And if you still, well, I'll ask it and then we'll kind of see where it goes. You said the saying that it resonated with me a lot at the time and still does. Actually, it's something I think about a lot.

Speaker 2: 59:55

You say when you were going through some change process, you said I will no longer tolerate those who see me as I am not, nor as I no longer wish to be. And my question number one is that something that you still believe? And if so, maybe you can explain that quote, because I feel like it's been really powerful for me. And then, number two, though, speaking of is it an overcorrection, is it self-delusion to be like I don't tolerate people who no longer see me as I wish to be? So they see me as I am, they see me accurately. So is that delusional to be like I know I no longer tolerate people who see me as I no longer wish to be?

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

I still stand by that saying, but I'll I'll make it more accurate, uh, for you. So I don't tolerate people who see me a way I'm not, a negative way that I'm not, or a negative way I no longer wish to be. Because the truth is I very much want to hang out with people who see me and treat me according to my next level, better self, right, which I'm not that yet. So the more accurate way that I would say that is I know I will not tolerate someone seeing me a negative way. I am not or no longer wish to be. I want to be with people who see me according to my best self and treat me according to my best self. Now here's the part about, about that statement I also have to hold myself to that same standard, right? In other words, I can't see myself a way that I'm not right. So that's the other part. I can't necessarily go. I am this thing now and I haven't done the work to get there. So there's a flip side of this. I will not, you know, see myself as something that I'm not willing to actually be Right. So that's the that's the flip side of this, and think about that saying the words are chosen very carefully. I will not see myself as something I am not prepared to actually be, which is, if I'm going to see myself a particular way to protect against delusion, then I must think that way, feel that way, choose that way and act that way. Right, I can't just decide I'm this way.

Speaker 1: 1:02:11

We see this a lot, and this is where it's delusional, right? You know, I always give the example of the American Idol situation, right, where someone gets up and they sing and they can't sing worth of anything, but no one ever told them they can't sing. And you're like, you're delusional. Whoever told you you can sing? And to me, I think this goes on a lot. Here's how we know. This is again why perception is the critical tool for individuals, because if you don't have the skill of perception, you don't see the repeated patterns, recurrent obstacles and stuck emotions that are telling you you're doing things wrong. You can call it if you want to get woo-woo, you can call our higher self. Our spiritual selves are talking to us all the time and what they're essentially saying is that pattern, that obstacle, that stuck emotion, that's your pattern, that's your obstacle, that's your stuck emotion. It's happening to you again and again and again, which means you're the problem right, and so to me it's not delusional because those things correct right. So to me I go your repeated patterns, your stuck emotions, your recurrent obstacles, they're the corrective forces in our lives. As a matter of fact, the human coaches, the people that I certify to do coaching. They are trained to be pattern spotters. That's ultimately what it is. They go through and see people's patterns, because that's another thing, by the way, talking about people who people want to go to for advice and feel safe around. Here's the thing If you're someone who is a really good friend and you're going to see a pattern in someone that they can't see, the analogy I always like to use is bad breath.

Speaker 1: 1:03:46

Right, most people who have bad breath aren't going to know they have bad breath. You're, as a good friend. You have to tell them, but you have to tell them in a way that is not going to make them feel horrible about themselves. The only way they would know is if you know they've never been kissed, people are keeping their distance, people are offering them gum all the time. Then they should get a hint. They have bad breath.

Speaker 1: 1:04:03

But what's really interesting is the people. Who people love the most are the people who go. You know there's something I want to tell you, share with you, and, by the way, you know I have my own stuff right. There's the self-deprecation and this and that, but what I've seen and tell me, if you know you can I always say tell me, tell me to fuck off if you want, because maybe I'm wrong, right, and I say that and then I say but here's what I see. Right, that might be a pattern for you, and what almost always happens is when it's said with love and it's said with authenticity and it's not said with judgment, people will have their emotional reaction to it initially, but they will always come back and essentially either be grateful you shared so that they could check in, or they might say I don't agree, but they will always be grateful for the coaching.

Speaker 1: 1:04:51

And so, from my perspective, that's how you keep from being delusional. Right, you look at your repeated patterns, stuck obstacles and stuck emotions and recurring obstacles, and you also have people around you that are also attuned and aren't afraid to tell you that's your pattern, it's not mine, and I think that's how you do it. And I don't think most people, most people, don't want to do that we live in a world now where it's like, if something's going on in a relationship, you're the toxic one and I just go. If you continue to expose yourself to something toxic, voluntarily exposing yourself to something toxic, then I hate to tell you this, but you're the toxic one, because what else is that? Then? There's a toxin over here that you keep exposing yourself to. That tells me you haven't figured something out.

Speaker 2: 1:05:37

Yeah, I like that distinction man. I think that makes a lot of sense to me Because I think that was the back end of that saying was something that I struggled with because maybe it felt inconsistent, because it was not the last part of. I will see myself as something I'm willing to be, so I think that's a really good distinction. But that's interesting. So that's something you still live by and recommend and sort of coach people on as well. That's really cool Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:06:04

Yeah, there's no question in my my mind, as a matter of fact, I think that's the courage to be this light thing like never. You know, I think the degree to which you have people who see you as your, your next level human self and not your past self, is a degree to which you will be happy and fulfilled in life, and the degree to which you can see other people that way is a degree to which you will have friends who love and adore you.

Speaker 2: 1:06:26

Well, put man Put a stamp on the episode Love you, homie.

Speaker 1: 1:06:30

Yeah, so I will end this. Just stay on the line, because I want to. Well, we'll catch up in a minute anyway, but for all you who are listening in live, thanks for being here and see you at the next episode.