Speaker 1: 1:25

Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm your host, dr Jay Tita. This is the Next Level Human podcast and I have a very special guest today, someone who I hit up on Instagram and begged him to come on to the show, and this is Avi Sherbill, and he is from GetSoundRxcom and is an expert in sound healing and sound therapy and I you know, as I do, as all of you know I like to go across and I use Instagram and social media primarily as one of my educational platforms and came across Avi. He is doing some really incredible stuff and have been following him and educating myself through him on sound therapy and that's one of the reasons why I wanted him on the show, because, from my perspective, frequencies are kind of misunderstood in this space. This is something that Avi does. He does sort of these natural frequencies, if you know, sound bowls and gongs and all this kind of stuff. This is kind of what he focuses on and he's using sound therapy in many ways to treat things like anxiety and other things and actually trains practitioners in how to do this work. So, avi, really excited you're here.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Welcome to the show, and I guess let's just start out number one with a thank you for your work. The Next Level Human podcast is really all about people who've gone through their struggles, and through their struggles and their pain they have found their purpose. Sounds like that is 1000 percent your story and just thank you for the work that you're doing to help educate all of us and, I guess, start wherever you want. Avi, how did you get started in this work and break it down for us, and then we'll kind of get into sort of the particulars of what this work actually is.

Speaker 2: 3:15

Yeah, so I got into this work around 2015, 2016, and it came on the heels of kind of like you were mentioning.

Speaker 2: 3:27

You know I'd spent some years struggling with addiction and obviously understanding that is, realizing it's a lot of unresolved trauma, unresolved pain, and that was manifesting in the form of, you know, substance abuse.

Speaker 2: 3:42

But before that was occurring, I was working in music production here in LA, and so I was always working in music. That was just kind of my life's passion. But then the space that I was in where I was doing it and just my mental and physical wellness was just compromised, and so I ended up really kind of falling apart for a period of time. And then, when I started to get my life back together and get into recovery, somebody who knew I had worked in music brought me to a session where somebody was incorporating sound and I just had a really profound experience. I felt like my anxiety levels, my stress levels, was just a complete 180. And I just became really interested in almost like the mechanics of it, like how it was able to do that. I hadn't experienced that, and so it sent me on a journey and I've just kind of been on that journey ever since me on a journey, and I've just kind of been on that journey ever since I love that man.

Speaker 1: 4:53

So I'm a novice when it comes to music. So let me just ask you a couple of questions about this. So before you got into sound therapy, you were obviously involved with music. How much did you know about different frequencies and things like that? Is that something that is oftentimes talked about? Or is that something you're educated on when you're in the music world? And I think you were a producer, right. So I'm wondering how much education did you have in actually these frequencies and how they worked? Or was it just more beats and you know things like that? I'm curious how you came to this, if that's something that you just innately know when you study music, or is it something you come to understanding?

Speaker 2: 5:28

innately know when you study music or is it something you come to understanding? Yeah, so you know, I worked a lot in composition and I had a long partnership with somebody who we were kind of like a duo and worked on production, worked on composition for different projects, different things. Towards the end it was like more commercial work and so, yeah, I mean frequency is understood in relation to production, so like frequencies that you don't want in a mix, so certain sounds you're kind of like wanting to bring down, so that when you're hearing the music you know a song, for instance, if it isn't mixed well, your ears are going to go like that, you're going to kind of pull away from the sound because it's it's too intense, and so they get levels where they're bringing things down, bringing things up. So frequency is understood more through that lens than how is this affecting somebody's like you know, neural activity, how is this affecting somebody's like? That's not how it's talked about, different in that sense.

Speaker 2: 6:35

Obviously, music has a very cathartic element. It can change emotional states very quickly. I think there's really nothing quite like music that will bring you back to a moment that you had last heard it. You listen to Led Zeppelin, for instance, and you're brought back to being 16 and in a car. Very few things can do that, so obviously it has that emotional component and mental effect and bodily effect In terms of affecting our health. No, I don't think it was talked about too much.

Speaker 1: 7:13

Yeah. So you know it's an interesting thing, right, Because I think any of us it's really interesting how these things evolve. I think, if you asked anyone Avi, I mean, I'm sure, right, we all love music, right, so, and everyone is familiar how music can move you and move you emotionally, and but then we talk about, well, sound therapy, right, and there seems to be this disconnect, and I think it's partly because people don't we still don't scientifically truly understand what is going on with emotions and how that relates to our consciousness and all those things, and so perhaps that's you know partly what's going on here, but I think everyone knows that music can impact your emotional state. It's, it's one of those things that you just grow up knowing if you like music. But it sounds like what you've done is you've gone sort of one step further to kind of go how do these things impact us?

Speaker 1: 8:06

And so I'm really curious to learn from you what you began to find out about the healing aspects of music Sounds like in the beginning you were like, well, frequency in general, I'm just going to lower some levels, increase some levels so I can make the music sound a particular way, so I can get you more focused on the music, but weren't fully understanding how these frequencies may be impacting health, and I don't even know, honestly, if I'm saying that correctly. Is it really the frequencies that are doing this, or is it something else? Walk us through how you discovered that music, and what components of music could be healing to our physiology and our psychology.

Speaker 2: 8:47

Yeah. So I guess a good place to start is what is sound, right? So sound is a wave and energy is obviously existing everywhere. You know the walls in the room that I'm in, the air, the wind, the trees, they're all moving. There's energy behind it. It is all like pulsating and vibrating. It is just kind of a core element of the universe.

Speaker 2: 9:18

We don't experience it as sound unless it travels through something. So energy movement needs something to travel through for you to experience it as sound. So it travels through wires, it travels through a bowl, a gong, guitar, string, whatever it is, and then you're able to experience those waves as sound one second. You can have very different types of experience, and that is what hertz is. So anytime people say 528 hertz, they're really just saying 528 waves in one second. And now, depending on the amount of waves that you're experiencing in one second, you can have very different effects on the nervous system, very different effects on brainwave states, and so what we're really playing with, with sound in particular, is what are the levels of waves that I'm introducing into the body? Because certain areas of the body, you know, pulsate, they move at X rate, and so then when you introduce that frequency to that area of the body. It will bring it back to its proper pattern, it will start moving at the correct speed, almost, and so this isn't some out there concept.

Speaker 2: 10:42

This is what they do with sports injuries. They send sound waves to sports injuries. They send sound waves to fractured bones, to kidney stones, to diseased cells. So I mean, they use this in hospitals. Where I think this work is different is we are, you know, not in the sickness care. You know we are looking to create wellness for people, you know. So it's not like wow, I have a shoulder injury, I'm looking for this. It is really optimizing people's health, and most people live in chronic stress, especially in this age and I think we're in the age of information and, in turn, inundated with a lot of stressors, many of which we don't have control over, and so that wreaks havoc on our system, wreaks havoc on our brainwave states, and so sound has this really unique ability in going into these areas and changing the way that cells move, changing the way that tissue is pulsating, changing the way at which your neurons are are firing I love that and actually you know it's interesting, right, that you say ultrasound.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Obviously you know it's all over, it's all over medicine and one of the one of the things and I'm just wondering this is just a thought I have, I don't know if it's accurate, so maybe you can correct me on this but one of the things I think about ultrasound, we use it for diagnostic purposes. It's's kind of like, I don't know, introducing a sound in a more forceful way, maybe to break up a kidney stone, let's say, or to do some diagnostic purposes. But it sounds like partly what you're saying, if I'm hearing you right, is that certain areas of the body are almost like certain tuning forks. Maybe we can use an example of Right, so, let's say, a particular area of the body resonates at a particular frequency. Right, so, let's say, a particular area of the body resonates at a particular frequency, and it sounds like what you're saying is, if I introduce that frequency, I can get that area of the body to resonate, you know, back in balance perhaps, or to find its more healthy resonance Is. Is that partly? You know what? What?

Speaker 2: 15:33

you're saying there. Yeah, exactly, I think most of the body is like a tuning fork where, when it interacts've done EEG studies on this the brainwaves will move and pulsate at the same exact rate as the external sound right. And then, as soon as that's happening in the brainwaves because the body's like one super system if it's happening in the brainwaves it's happening in the breath and then it's happening with the heart rate right. If you're stressed, it's not like, oh, my heart rate just goes up. It's like your breathing changes, the way your organs are moving changes your GI track, your brainwave activity, all of these things are affected. So when we affect one area, all the other major pulses follow. So you know, the body is really just like one giant tuning fork. There's a doctor, alfred Tomatis, and he says you know, the body is one giant ear right, and so the body is just constantly taking in sonic information and absorbing it, from the skin to the fascia, to the tissue, to the cells.

Speaker 1: 16:57

Yeah, I love that. I don't know if you, I don't know if you know, this is the first time you and I are meeting each other. But do you know? I just interviewed her. Her name's Brooke McPoyle. She has a she's at musical breath work on Instagram. Anyway, she talks about this really interesting thing that reminds me of what you're you're saying here that she talks about, obviously the.

Speaker 1: 17:16

The breath can impact the frequency in the brain. The frequencies of the brain can impact the breath and the heart and then the fascia, right? So it's like these things are connected and we all can do this in different ways, right? Like I can certainly do breath work and impact this system. You're using sound to essentially impact the system. So, if I'm hearing you correctly, and I'm just repeating this for the listener, we introduce a particular sound. We can entrain the brainwaves to that sound, to those hertz, to those waves per second. So we introduce 432 hertz.

Speaker 1: 17:51

The brain starts to, over a particular period of time, begin to resonate with that. That can change our breath rate, heart rate, which we know also is an electromagnetic field that it gives off ECGs and EEGs. That's essentially what we are measuring and then even impact the fascia, since many people are seeing the fascial holding patterns as being directly related to that. So if that's accurate, then how do we know? Well, one question I have is do certain areas of the body resonate differently, or is it certainly, as far as we know, so far, that it's just primarily impacting the brainwave, like I'm wondering, you know, let's take the chakra systems, for example. Do we know that they resonate, perhaps at certain areas? I'm just wondering, or are we just working with the brain states?

Speaker 2: 18:41

Yeah, it's interesting. I talk about this in my trainings. You know, the medical symbol, the caduceus is where it's like the two snakes wrapping around the pole. So, you know, that's based off of Hermes staff, which is Hermes Trismegistus in Egyptian mythology, where it's a staff, and, you know, I think the idea is that the two snakes are quarreling, it's like the pole and them kind of coming into balance with each other. What people say, though, is that, in terms of the symbolism there is that, if you look at the chakras, the kundalini rising, it is actually two snakes wrapping around the spine, traveling upwards, and so, when we talk about chakras, carl Jung says chakras are archetypes, so it's a way of understanding how energy or how waves are moving through the body, and so, you know, chakras, to me, are an entryway to understanding the energetic movement in the body.

Speaker 2: 23:36

We could also use the elements, we could use the doshas.

Speaker 2: 23:40

You know there's a lot of ways of of understanding this, but what they, I think, all connect to is that there are harmonics. To me, chakras are harmonics, and harmonics are the way that sound is moving up and down the body, and what will happen is that, when you go through a difficult experience, and whatever it may be it could be shock, trauma, it could be chronic stress, it could be pre-verbal. Whatever it looks like, we tend to hold that pattern in the body in a certain area and because we haven't had a caregiver attuned to that or we haven't internally been able to process it or integrate it, it gets stored in our body as a pattern of stress. And so when sound goes into that area, it could be an exact frequency or it could be an instrument which is delivering a lot of different frequencies at once and it can release that pattern of stress in that area of the body. And so it's almost like changing the radio dial from compression to decompression. It's like a pattern of tightness and tension, and then it opens up and it releases.

Speaker 1: 24:58

Yeah, it's interesting that you and I are first meeting, but my listeners would know kind of what you're talking about and I'll walk you through this and tell me if this is what you're talking about. I talk about it as what I call MUD, which is an acronym for misguided unconscious decisions or misguided unconscious dysfunction, so that when we go through our childhood development, our adolescent development, we end up running into difficulty, struggles, trials, tribulations, sometimes capital T traumas that essentially get stuck in our unconscious, like you're talking about. They're misguided because obviously we didn't have the tools, the know-how, the maturity, the wisdom to deal with these events at the time. They're unconscious because they're sort of in our unconscious body which we could call chakras and the unconscious sort of system perhaps. And they're decisions sometimes, because we do create stories in our minds. Out of these we make a choice, whether we're aware of them or not, to see the world a particular way, whether it's safe or not, whether we're accepted and we belong or not.

Speaker 1: 26:02

So it sounds like perhaps you're speaking to the same thing that my listeners know as mud, this misguided unconscious dysfunction or decisions that are created through difficulties in our lives, but you're addressing them partly through the introduction of particular frequencies that then can move these particular parts of the body.

Speaker 1: 26:24

And one thing I'll say and I want to see if you have experienced this with your work is that one of the things I've noticed as a clinician is that you will oftentimes see over time if you work with enough people, particular areas of the body come along with particular emotional states, and then those particular emotional states oftentimes come with particular stories. For example, depression seems to be pretty low in the body and it also seems to be combined with a story of lack of hope or lack of trust. Anxiety is a little bit further up, maybe in the solar plexus. It seems to be combined with the inability to make a decision. So I'm wondering if you're talking about the same thing. Are you seeing overlap in what we're both talking about here and you're using the tool of music and frequencies and tones to address this?

Speaker 2: 27:17

Yeah, yeah, I think exactly what you're saying. I think the body isn't rational, you know. So it's. It's not speaking in English, it's dealing with sensations.

Speaker 2: 27:30

And so, yeah, if in early life there was a lot of yelling going on, your body, out of its need to survive, will decide I'm going to kind of like armor myself, I'm going to like protect myself in those moments. And, yeah, it is misguided and it is an unconscious decision. It isn't like if you ask somebody consciously what do you want for yourself, they'll say I want peace and I want a good job and I want all of these things. But then you see what their life plays out like. It is very different than what they're consciously saying, because there is a disconnect between the conscious and unconscious there. And so you know, when we start to make, you know the unconscious, conscious, that to me is like working both with the body and those, those, those deeper states.

Speaker 2: 31:57

And so, yeah, what frequency, what sound is able to do? Yeah, sound is medicine because it is able to induce that parasympathetic response through the release of chemicals, through the slowing, as a response to their environment, as a need to survive. They don't even realize that they've had their cortisol, their adrenaline, that all of these things have been jacked up for so long because they've adapted to it, that's their norm. But when you bring that all down a little bit, you know in my case I'm working with sound people come in contact with this version of themselves they haven't known in, sometimes decades, you know, because they've been running in certain patterns and certain, you know, misguided, unconscious you know decisions and they don't even, they're not even aware of it, you know. And so the beautiful thing with sound is it does all of that without speaking.

Speaker 2: 33:08

You know, it's nonverbal communication. It's the vibration meeting the vibration. You know it's like the outer vibration meeting the inner vibration. And so, yeah, I do see emotions get held in certain areas. I also will sometimes see the way somebody speaks. Sometimes people can speak in a very fiery way. Sometimes people are very like ether air. They're very like yeah, I was thinking that, yeah, of course you know. And so, like, we're always picking up on these cues that people are offering us and I'm just kind of taking that into account when working with them.

Speaker 1: 33:47

I love that a lot and actually one of the things I'll walk you. I know you probably know this, but I'll just walk our listeners through this because I think it speaks to what Avi's educating us on. But when you think of stress, I think we have to understand that we get stuck in particular states, almost like a light dimmer, right. So short-lived stress, we have it, we react to it, we get stronger. You know, we build resilience. So stress can go to strength. But stress also, if it's prolonged, can go to striving mode first, right, because we're in survival mode. Then, if it continues, we go into struggle mode and, of course, if it's super intense all at once, or really prolonged, we can go into shock mode. And I think what you're speaking of here, avi, is this idea that what we really want is we want to be able to go into stress and come back and build strength and resilience and be able to be flexible in, I guess, in the way that we react to life, whereas some people go from stress to striving and they get stuck there, right, or they go from striving to struggle and they get stuck there, right, or they go from striving to struggle and they get stuck there, and we see this all the time type A personalities, people who overexercise, you know all of these things and so it sounds like you know.

Speaker 1: 34:54

From my perspective, what you're essentially saying is hey, jade, we can use music to essentially tone down all that sympathetic drive, because that's what that is right Stress to striving, striving to struggle, struggle to shock. It's basically the light switch of the sympathetic drive being turned on. And you're essentially saying, in order for someone to rest and recover, we need to get them to safety and safeness, and we do that through sound. We can shut that thing off and, by the way, I don't know and I don't know if you do, but I don't know of many other things in medicine that can do that and it makes me be aware of sort of the Bramari breath. You know the humming breath and the activation of the vagus nerve and its ability to have us. You know this parasympathetic response. But it sounds like you're using multiple instruments, multiple frequencies and different things to do this.

Speaker 2: 35:53

And I would imagine there's not much more powerful medicine doesn't really have a way to do this. Yeah, I think it kind of rubs up against the medical model which is you know, hey, you have this pain, let me prescribe you this. You know, hey, you know you have, like, like you're saying, depression, well, let's get you on some medication for the depression. Right, and you know, when you see the rated which you know, I live in America, so it's like you look at the rate at which, you know, just Americans are on at least one pharmaceutical prescription. It's, it's astounding. And then you look at younger populations. I mean, it's pretty baffling the amount of younger kids that are on, essentially, you know, amphetamines, and so what is going on is an inability to focus, you know an inability to regulate emotional states, and is that just because they're, quote unquote, depressed, or is there a suppression of emotions?

Speaker 2: 36:49

And then, when we talk about emotions, energy in motion, what is that? It's a vibration in the body. It's the way that that area of the body is not pulsating at the rate that it should be, because something happened in early life, like you're saying, there could be some chronic stress that is sending them into, you know, striving mode or shock mode, whatever it looks like for that person. And so I think what you know, the aim is to really first come into awareness of the pattern, you know, and that's where I think some like conscious work of understanding patterns and creating relationships to them can be powerful.

Speaker 2: 37:27

But what I love about sound is it brings us into that unconscious state, you know, and it brings us into the body where those patterns are living, and those areas you can't just access through talking. You know, and the beautiful thing with frequency is frequency has no past, present, future, it just is. You know, in the same way that what happened is, it just is. You know. It's not good, bad, it's, it's there, you know. And so that's kind of what we work with when, when, when we apply sound.

Speaker 1: 38:02

Yeah, yeah. So let me, let me walk you through this and let's get into some of the frequencies. So I'll just give you a little bit of my take on this and then you correct me if I'm wrong on this. But when I think of like rational thinking mind, like me and you talking right now, like we're engaged, we're focused on each other, we're sort of in our rational states, I think of, you know, high beta brainwaves, right. So you know, we're kind of, you know, and maybe high beta brainwaves, a little more anxiety, right, like maybe we're just in beta brainwave state right now, and that's sort of a more rational thinking pattern. And this is I know I'm saying this like a statement, but it really is a question to you because I really don't know if this is correct.

Speaker 1: 38:39

But then of course we can go into different brainwave states. Right, we can go into lower, you know, or is it lower frequencies, higher frequency? I don't know, you can tell me, right, but so we have, we can go into alpha, which is this place where it's more, you know, meditative. Then we can kind of go into gamma and theta and delta, right, and it sounds like if I was hearing you appropriately from the other from earlier. When we're more rational, we're up in this beta state, but is it true then that what we're trying to do when we get more unconscious, we can use frequencies to deliver us more into these altered states of consciousness that give us access more to the unconscious when, like you said, the conscious brain thinks in rational, linear language, the unconscious thinks more in symbol, emotion, metaphor, dreamlike states. And so is that what we're ultimately doing here, when you're talking about rational conscious versus getting into the unconscious and these unconscious holding patterns?

Speaker 2: 39:45

to the unconscious and these unconscious holding patterns. Yeah, in terms of like working with instruments and working more in sessions and the therapeutic value of. You know, what I love about natural occurring sounds is it's only natural occurring sounds that create the harmonics, which is what we're craving. You know, the harmonics are like the sounds above the sound, the sounds below the sound. It's these really rich sounds that resonate in the body in this really unique way, whereas when we're working with an electronically produced tone that's more exact, we're using those for more exact purposes. So when I'm working with instruments which are coming from the elements which then reflect our own elemental structure, you know, when we talk about our fascia, fascia has a crystalline structure to it, you know it's. It's covering 70 to 80% of the body and so when you take in the vibration of crystal, it's affecting the crystalline structure in your anatomy, right. And so when working with sound in that way, yeah, the goal is to take people out of that more rational state where people tend to intellectualize their problems and intellectually approach a situation and try to quote, unquote, figure it out, which is to me much more of a fight or flight.

Speaker 2: 41:09

Energy, the work that I'm doing and that you were talking about is kind of allowing for those rational defenses to come down and allowing for the linear mind to turn off.

Speaker 2: 41:24

And when it does that, a lot of the emotional interferences get turned down also, and so a lot of those holding patterns of fear and pain and rejection and guardedness, all of those things come down and you are coming into this kind of much more yeah, dreamlike state where I think there's a lot more possibility, a lot more creativity.

Speaker 2: 41:54

I mean, it's a state of imagination, right, it is a dreamlike state, and the beautiful thing is those were states that we were existing in when we were zero to two and two to four and four to six. You know, we weren't in beta brainwave states, we were in delta and theta brainwave states when we were really young, which is when most of how we took in the world got created, you know. And so when we're able to go back to that place and literally rewire the brain and restructure our physiology, you know, that's where I think a lot is possible. And so I like to kind of combine both the understanding of the pattern and then moving into that deeper state of imprinting this new feeling onto the body, imprinting this new wave onto the brain.

Speaker 1: 42:46

I really love that, avi, because it makes me think, and I think this is what you're saying. But it makes me think like if you took on these misguided unconscious decisions, this mud that has essentially become cemented in your unconscious at times when you were living mostly in theta and other brain states, then and if that stuff gets stuck in us sounds like what you're saying is, if we can put us back into those brain states, you can actually release some of this. And I certainly have seen in some of my work with breath work, which almost always comes along with music. Right, it's like, you know, breath work and music sort of go hand in hand. I have seen people have almost like psychedelic releases. You know where. You'll see. You'll see people cry, you'll see people laugh, you'll see people laugh. You'll see people get these energetic shakes through their body. You'll see people sort of purging in a sense of energetics, and some of it will be emotions, some of it will be physical sensations and other things, and it sounds like that's essentially what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 43:45

And I want to ask because I am aware of some research in this area, for example, like one I think it was pretty recent study that I saw, or maybe I just saw it recently, so I don't know how old it is, but it's. It was basically taking people with ADHD and putting them around beehives and having the bees you know essentially that sound of those bees and I don't know I think they said that's something like 432 or something like that that a lot of these nature sounds fall in there. You may know or not, but what it did was it actually helped them focus and took away some of these ADHD symptoms which again, sort of, from my perspective, is interesting. Because where did this you know, lack of focus or inability to stay focused come from what, you know? Did it come from these earlier states and get stuck in our physiology? Because it got stuck in these particular brain states or these nervous system states and now we're coming in with certain frequencies to access those states.

Speaker 1: 44:40

And maybe that's why I'm seeing in some of this work that I'm doing and I want to know if you're seeing it too where people will literally emote and be like a memory will come to mind that they hadn't thought about in forever. They'll access this memory, they'll cry, they'll let it out and then they're just like I had no idea that was there and it's like healing for them. So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that and have you seen that? And then I really want to get into, you know, thoughts about frequencies and which frequencies we all should be working towards.

Speaker 2: 45:10

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've seen a wide range of experiences, depending on the person. And yeah, I think when you're talking about and I mean I've, I've seen it in breathwork classes, where it's like people purging, like tears, a lot of emotion, sometimes people laughing like sometimes that's their release, whatever it is, you know it's not like they're releasing something from yesterday. They're usually releasing patterns that are decades old. You know that have been there for a long time and that's why it is so charged. There is so much emotion there and I think a lot of times people weren't able to express they both didn't have the space to and they both didn't have the capacity for, they didn't have a caregiver to attune to them.

Speaker 2: 46:00

And I think what happens a lot in early life is we abandon our own needs to satiate the needs of the parents. So it's like not what do I need? It's like what does mom need for her to be safe? Because she's my caregiver, you know that's how I feel safe is through my mother. So let me almost like morph my personality into like who I need to be to both receive love and to make sure that my mother's okay.

Speaker 2: 46:24

And so I think those like coping mechanisms and those patterns get held in the body and usually it shows up a long time later as thyroid issues, as autoimmune issues, as IBS, you know. And so then when we start to work with the shifting of those emotional states and then we start to release the pattern from the body and from the brain, there is oftentimes this, you know a lot of times people will say like wow, I don't even know where that came from, or like I don't even know what happened, you know. And then they want to rationally understand it. But there is no need to rationally understand it. You know, it's like allowing for the experience to be what it is. So I think you know Wilhelm Freud's student talked about it as armoring.

Speaker 2: 47:15

You know there's a somatic armoring that happens where it's like I put on armor to defend myself from the pain of life, and so when we take that armor off there is a release, and so all of that armoring is also existing as a vibrational state, and so when we release that pattern held in the body, we're able to do that, you know.

Speaker 2: 47:39

And so I'm not familiar with that beehive study, but I do know of some studies out of UC Santa Barbara that talks about how ADHD is a result of emotional trauma, right, and so when there is that stored stress from emotional dysregulation, suddenly you have an inability to focus, you know, an inability to to pay attention, and what's amazing with the sound is that we'll actually shut down ranges of frequencies that were traumatizing to us, and so and so. What ranges do people tend to shut down? Are the ranges of a man and a woman's voice? Right, and so we're shutting down those sounds that were too overwhelming for us. And then they're in school, they're in different environments and they're like I have an inability to focus, you know, but you literally can't hear the sonic information because you had shut that down as a result of, you know, earlier experiences.

Speaker 1: 48:44

Wow, avi, that is so fascinating and I'll have to look at that study as well, because you know how, like whenever you're reading studies, you know you forget, right, like the exact details. So for the listeners, I'll kind of look that up and make sure I have that correct. But let's get into this a little bit. I know that one of the things you alluded to and I'm very curious about this in your work, as I've been following you now and learning from you is that you mentioned this idea that you can create a particular electronic sound. Right, and many people do this, but you seem to use, you know, sort of bowls and other things that are, you know what we call them more organic, and it seems like you're alluding to the fact that this does something different, based on the harmonics.

Speaker 1: 49:30

And is that true? And can you just walk us through a little bit of of what that means? Because I know a lot of us get exposed to stuff like you know. You go on Spotify and you're like, okay, I'm going to listen to you know five, 28 Hertz, or four, 32 Hertz, or I'm going to listen to 960, whatever hertz, you know, is this the same thing as what you're doing with? You know the sounds. Is it essentially equivalent or is there something different about it?

Speaker 2: 49:56

As soon as something travels through wires, the sound gets changed. You know it's no longer organic and you know it needs to, almost like, get pushed down a little bit in order for you to experience the sound. And then, when you're using certain platforms, they'll only accept, for instance, mp3. And so MP3s compress it even further, and so you know it could still have elements of that sound, but you've also lost some of those highs or lows of that sound, and so that's one thing that can happen when we're listening through Spotify or whatever the platform is. I think YouTube's even worse with that stuff, just the way they have to compress things In terms of organically produced or living sounds.

Speaker 2: 50:51

To me, that is like one of the most effective ways, because what I love I'm looking at like my bowls in the room, what I love about the natural instruments is that they're coming from the elements, you know, and the elements are mirrored in our own anatomy, and so we're made up of the elements and we crave the elements, you know, because we're constantly codifying and downloading patterns of nature.

Speaker 2: 51:22

It's what we do when we go outside, you know. It's not just like, ah, fresh air. You're like Neo in the Matrix with those green letters kind of pouring down. You're codifying these patterns of nature which then affect the way you hear things, the way your brain moves. You go by water and you literally entrain to the rhythm of the waves. And aside from the benefits of the waves, you know, and aside from the benefits of like the air and the water, you know, your brain and your heartbeat are moving to the rhythm of the water.

Speaker 2: 51:53

So when we take in sounds that are coming from the elements, there is just an organic acoustic sound to them that I don't think can be matched. Where I think electronically produced sounds can be really impactful is using it for like a more specific purpose, you know. So I think, in a general sense, acoustic sounds are amazing because they contain the harmonics, a lot of these wide ranging sounds that are really powerful for us. But you know, when working with like more exact sounds to elicit a certain state or a certain response, then I feel like that can be more powerful.

Speaker 1: 52:37

Yeah, yeah, you know it's interesting for me. It reminds me that that discussion that you just walked us through reminds me a little bit of like sunlight versus like red light therapy. Right, like, obviously sunlight has this wide array of all the you know wide array of, you know sort of the electromagnetic spectrum, you know of light that we can see, but it's got a whole lot more going on. But then if we want to do something like you know, heal a joint or something like that, or avoid, you know some of the, we might block out some of the blue and increase some of the red or things like that. And it sounds like you know what you're saying is the acoustics maybe are more like, you know, sunlight, that there's just more going on and more to that we can interact with and codify. But we also can get more specific with particular frequencies, if I'm hearing you correctly.

Speaker 1: 53:26

And I guess the next question and that brings us to probably the question that's on a lot of people's mind that they're going to ask an expert in sound like you about, and that's going to be what are the frequencies that are most impactful? And is that even a good question? Because you know how we are rationally, avi, right, we want to be like Avi. Give me, like, what is the frequency I should be listening to to heal X, y and Z? I'm imagining you're going to answer this. It's probably much more complex than that and more nuanced than that. But walk us through sort of this talk about where everyone's talking about frequencies. Now, right, like this particular frequency is better than that frequency. And how do you see that kind of stuff?

Speaker 2: 54:07

Yeah, I wish I could show you my phone to show you what the DMs look like, where it's like it's just, it's so wild. It's like I got a DM. Like I got a DM three days ago and somebody's like what is the frequency to get over? My boyfriend and I was like go. And somebody's like what is the?

Speaker 1: 54:27

frequency to get over my boyfriend and I was like you're like, hey, if I had that frequency I would. I would be solving everyone's problems.

Speaker 2: 54:34

Yeah, I was like I wouldn't even be talking to you if I had that frequency. Yeah, I mean people contact me with like a lot of different issues and I think they're looking for I mean they're in pain usually first off. And so I think you know you're looking for answers and looking for solutions in those moments. Um, and so I think it really is dependent on what's going on with the person. When somebody has a cancer, for instance, there's different frequencies for different cancers, and so sometimes people just say I have cancer. Well, it's like what type of cancer, what type of thing are you dealing with? And then it's also to me what emotionally is going on with the person? Because what can happen is, like you're talking about, we're looking for these answers and solutions.

Speaker 2: 55:39

When I think somebody receives a name or a label of I have anxiety, I have depression, I have you know, god forbid a terminal illness, that name and that label carries a lot of charge, a lot of emotion to it, you know. And so sometimes, like they talk about this in Chinese medicine, they move away from the name and the labeling and move more into like let's warm the body up, let's cool the body down, let's bring this into the system, let's take this out of the system, and to me that is a much softer and more neutral approach than than, um, you know, anytime somebody comes to me and I'm working with them, I really try to move out of the like labeling of the situation and I try for them to feel more of the sensation of what that feels like and work with that. Because once we're able to access, wow, I feel it in my temples, you know, it could be like something really extreme that they have. Or I feel it in my temples, you know, it could be like something really extreme that they have. Or I feel it in my chest. It's like, okay, then I may, even I'll, either apply an instrument over that area or I'll work with certain frequencies depending on, like, what I'm looking into for that person.

Speaker 2: 56:57

So it really, you know, people have trillions of frequencies running through them at all times and so to prescribe like one exact frequency for all of humanity feels a bit large and hard for me to really say. I'll just say for me right now, a frequency I'm listening to a lot is 15 Hertz for pain management. I find that to be very helpful I'm personally using, but it would feel like a little out of alignment for me to just shoot off a bunch of frequencies and say like this is great for everybody, because I don't think that's always the case, but for me right now I'm listening to 27, 20 and 15 Hertz a lot for pain management and inflammation, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:03

Yeah, and you know I'll throw something out that maybe you want to comment on, just so I can. I'll give the listeners my take and, by the way, I'm not an expert in this space, but the way just I conceptualize this is, I go, we humans, we're each unique, right, you know. So, avi, me, all of you listeners, we're incredibly unique. So you can kind of see us as our own music, our own frequency. We can. You know just the physicality, you know, you see us, as you know, we're all very unique. So to me I would imagine we're all sort of a unique symphony, right, and so one hertz, you know, one particular frequency is going to sound differently or do something different in me than it might, avi, like I think about it's, like you know, depending on the music you're playing, right, like I don't know, if you're in a symphony and someone comes in with a violin, a strong violin, it might make sense and it might harmonize everything. But if you're in a symphony and someone comes in, like with a giant electric guitar and like starts, you know, you know going to town on it, it might disrupt the whole. You know symphony. So I kind of look at it in this lens where it's sort of like, you know, different frequencies are going to have a different effect in different bodies and different emotional states. The other thing I'll say there and by the way, I don't know him, but I want to hear what Avi has to say about this and then the other thing I see in my work is that step one is about opening people up to awareness. Right, it's really about what we can do. This is what I think breath work, journaling, music, sound it's opening people up to the awareness of how their biofield, their energetics, their unconscious, emotional body is translating into biochemistry and physicality and perhaps getting stuck in a body, and it's opening up to those things. So when I'm working with people I say you know, we can focus on a memory, we can focus on a physical sensation, we can focus on a repeated pattern you know sort of in your life and we can focus on, you know, stuck emotions. And usually it falls into these four patterns for me, and what happens is, regardless, depending on what you focus on, certain things will come up.

Speaker 1: 1:00:06

So you know, imagine going through breath work and focusing on one of these four elements and then listening to particular music. That and it might be appropriate and I think you know it may be about finding another particular frequency that resonates with someone. In the same way we resonate with particular genres, you know. I know when I was young I was very much into hardcore, you know, hip hop. Now I'm much more into sort of like Rufus the Soul and more you know of that kind of stuff, and it's just this resonance, you know sort of that I resonate with, that brings me, you know, sort of energy, right, you know sort of that I resonate with, that brings me, you know, sort of energy, right, you know. And so I'm wondering if we're going to find out that this is the way, perhaps, that this works.

Speaker 1: 1:00:48

But I do think that people asking for particular frequencies, I think, should realize that I think a lot of what we're doing, you know and I'm curious again, avi, what you think about this is opening people up to the awareness where then the work begins, whereas therapy doesn't do this.

Speaker 1: 1:01:04

Oftentimes it just is processing from a rational place. So there's not true awareness, there's a logical awareness, but we all know that that's not true awareness. So true awareness is a knowing, a felt sense of something, and I do think these treatments sort of bring us to this opening up where now it's like oh, I really get it. It's not just that I have a mother wound, I know what that is like from a felt sense and how it's that unique mother wound is particular to Jade and not just a rational thing that I'm talking about with my therapist. And I think these things open up that awareness and once you understand that deep, felt, physical, individual awareness, the real work can begin. You start to become aware of the patterns in your life, you start to become aware of the behaviors that come along with that, and I do think it's really about the opening but I'm wondering your thoughts on that and then we can sort of wrap it up the opening, but I'm wondering your thoughts on that, and then we can sort of wrap it up.

Speaker 2: 1:02:04

Yeah, so I agree, I think the first step is awareness and to me the step after that is acceptance. It's like you first have to have a relationship with it, otherwise it's like that line if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears, it doesn't make a sound. It's like if it's outside of my awareness, even if I keep seeing it show up, it doesn't make a sound. It's like if it's outside of my awareness, even if I keep seeing it show up, it doesn't matter. So you first have to create the relationship with what's there. And another element to that is like you know, how open is somebody to wanting to shift out of that? You know, because you could have the Dalai Lama delivering like the most amazing speech to somebody, but if they're like walled off, it's not going in. So it's also like how much, how open is somebody to even receiving this? You know, are they in resonance with the medicine that's being offered? Because as great as a moment can be, or a retreat or a session can be, to me what's more important is what is the daily pattern that they're persisting in? There's that line whatever you practice grows stronger. So if I do a session with somebody and that person is feeling like they're burying their body, they're very loose, they're very flowing, but then the rest of their day they're cut off, they're enraged, they're doing all of these things that are counter to what that session is Well, that's going to override whatever that single moment was. So to me it's really about, like what is the daily pattern that I'm persisting in? Because that is really going to create that truth for somebody. I don't know if you've ever seen that study that shows the levels of happiness of people a year after they win the lottery and although they have an initial spike, but a year later their levels of happiness are the exact same. And the same goes for somebody who God forbid gets into a bad car accident. They become a paraplegic, obviously a huge dip initially, but then a year later they're relatively at the same levels.

Speaker 2: 1:04:12

Right, because it isn't about this one event that's going to open you up like that. It is like what is the daily pattern, those small moments that I'm committing to? So what I feel like sound does, and what I'm hearing from you a lot of the work that you are doing does is it elicits a response in the system to kind of like disrupt the pattern you know. And as soon as you create that, it creates like an awakening in the body, in the felt sensation and also in the understanding of what's possible. You know, it's like giving language to something that you didn't know was there, you know, or seeing a color that you didn't know had existed.

Speaker 2: 1:04:57

And so as soon as we see that or feel that, you know, they say, as soon as you imprint a new feeling onto the body, the body doesn't forget. So when we stimulate a deep relaxation response through sound, the body doesn't even realize how tense it was. And now they realize, wow, I feel so at ease, I feel so in my body, so in my body. And then to me it's like what are the patterns that I'm persisting in on a daily basis, to kind of stay in that, to stay in my body, and that to me is like the where the real, you know work happens.

Speaker 1: 1:05:36

Yeah, that's so well said, Avi. I love that whole thought process and, of course, right now everyone's talking about nervous system holding patterns and all of this kind of stuff and to me, I think this work, what you're doing, is like the thing that these individuals should be doing. So I've taken a lot of your time. I so appreciate you and your genius and the work that you are doing. I want to give you an opportunity to just close this out with any final thoughts, but I do want to let everyone know that Avi has some resources on his website. The Anti-Manifestation Manifestation Guide is one of those things that you can go over to his site and get. It's a really cool sort of thing that he has there and get. It's a. It's a really cool sort of thing that he has there. Um, also, don't forget his website. Uh, you know getsoundrxcom and you're sound rx on social right at sound rx, or is it at no sound rx?

Speaker 2: 1:06:34

no, I had to do. You know somebody, I was like looking someone else got it yeah, somebody else got it and it's like totally inactive. Know they had like one post from like 10 years ago. I reached out. They never responded. They probably don't even know they have it anymore. Yeah, I would love to have SoundRx, but they're not responding to me. But yeah, anything that you want to leave the listener with, I think they're you know.

Speaker 1: 1:07:06

Obviously you're in the Los Angeles area. I was actually in Santa Monica for up until a couple of years ago so you and I were definitely in the same neighborhood. So I guess you do classes and things like that, but any other things you want to leave them with that and where they can find you and how they can work with you directly.

Speaker 2: 1:07:24

Yeah, so again, the IG is at GetSoundRx, the website is the same, com.

Speaker 2: 1:07:30

What my main focus on right now are the trainings that I offer.

Speaker 2: 1:07:34

I do them both virtually and in person, and so we have another one starting at the end of September and it's really beautiful. I mean, that's the power of this virtual space is going to be having people from England and from Greece and, you know, from America all joining in, and I say the training is to really help create conscious practitioners of sound, and so I take people through all of the different areas that they would need to in order to facilitate on their own, the most important being their understanding of what it is doing and why it is doing it. One of my teachers said if you don't know, you bring people into a space of not knowing. So it's really important to understand what we are working with, how we are working with it, and then you know. The beauty is like watching people take it out into their spaces, into their communities, and see, like you know a town over here, and they're doing like sound healing and vocal toning, and I'm like that's so, yeah, that's, that's, that's what comes to mind.

Speaker 1: 1:08:55

So, yeah, that's what comes to mind. You combine them in an interest, you begin to do that work authentically, and then you begin to learn, teach and love or create for others, and I just think it's so cool what you're doing. I'm incredibly grateful for your time, my friend, so thank you so much for being here. Do me a favor, avi, just hang on the line because I want to make sure all this uploaded, but for all of you, please check Avi out and we will see you at the next episode.