The Science of Metabolic Mastery and Athletic Nutrition with Dr Jeff Graham MD and Dr Michael Donovan PhD- Ep. 262

Speaker 1: 1:25

All right, everybody, welcome to today's podcast. I'm back with my two bros, dr Jeff Graham and Dr Michael Donovan, recurring. We want to be doing these recurring shows because we each come with sort of a diverse perspective and of working through some of the issues that you all struggle with, especially as it pertains to information, information, overload, information, confusion, especially as it relates to diet and supplements, and so that's what we're going to really talk about today. How can we make sense of nutrition supplementation with three guys who have been doing this for a while? So, what's up, guys? Good to see you, man good to see you too.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Glad to be back, yeah, glad we're back here, yeah 100.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Well, let's, let's, let's start out now. Whichever one of you want to go first, you know, I think it'd just be useful for people to hear um your general way of uh conceptualizing, uh nutrition for yourself and for the patients clients you work with. Take it away.

Speaker 2: 2:33

Yeah, man. So you know, when I think of nutrition, I'm going to steal from Michael during our last time, and I love the idea of nourishment, right, I think that was a really good point that we need to feel nourished by the foods we're eating. And for me, that nourishment, when I'm talking to folks, I'm trying to think about how you feel energetically and how, when you feel full, when you feel satiated. You know, there, as you mentioned, there are a thousand different ways to look at nutrition and, dear God, you know what is it.

Speaker 2: 3:03

I think I remember reading that there every day, just in this country, there's close to a hundred nutrition papers put out, whether that's a meta-analysis, a study, a white paper, but they're all often conflicting and that's why one day in the news you see, hey, it turns out butter's good for you, and the next day it's like no, guess what? Butter's bad for you. So it's conflicting, it's hard to dial in on. So I like to talk to my folks a lot about how full do you feel throughout the day with what you're eating right now? I think that can be a really easy way to check in with yourself and decide whether or not it's.

Speaker 2: 3:37

You know, you're on this diet where you're leaving yourself in the tank, you know, an hour and a half, two hours later, or whether you're feeling like you have sustained energy and it's more just about kind of grazing throughout your day with a couple of bigger meals in there. One thing I do feel like we've gotten away from in this kind of you know carbs or poison attitude we've had for the last decade that has been largely propagated in the media, is the importance of micronutrients in our diet. I can't tell you the number of patients I talk to that are, you know, like, oh man, I tried keto and I felt great. But you know, I started realizing that my uh, I don't know my, you know I had these couple of labs checked in my my methylation numbers are off. You know I've gone a little bit deeper on their stuff. I'm like, yeah, it's cause, you know, you're lacking a lot of.

Speaker 2: 4:39

B. Yeah, what about you, Michael?

Speaker 3: 4:44

Yeah, I think there's four Fs that come to mind when I think of nutrition there's fuel, there's four Fs that come to mind when I think of nutrition there's fuel, there's function, there's fun and there's fasting. And so when we talk about fuel, we're talking about the macros, we're talking about calories, we're talking about the numbers side of things. Function is the performance side of things, as you said. Micronutrients, those are vitamins and minerals. Fun is taste, or I want a little jolt, and then so I have, you know, even if it doesn't taste good, it's. Maybe it's a Red Bull or whatever, right, and there's some, you know, maybe dopamine hit from it, right.

Speaker 3: 5:24

And then fasting is the timing, and it's not necessarily. We're all fasting at some point, right? Unless you're getting up and eating in the middle of the night, you're, you're fasting during, during that time. And so we talk about intermittent fasting and, and you know, multi-day fasts and things like that. But really, to me, that's just the timing piece. And so there's the, there's the calories, uh, macronutrients, performance, micronutrients, taste and all of those kinds of things. And then and then the timing of taste and all of those kinds of things, and then and then the timing of of when you eat things and so that's uh. Also, you know just when we're talking about timing before and after workouts and things like that that I would put that under under fasting. So I like to think of those four F's.

Speaker 2: 6:01

I like that.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Yeah, yeah, I like that as well, and I and I want to get into sort of talking about calories, uh, and you know that whole thing is a calorie, a calorie, so we'll get into that, remind me. And then I do want to talk about, you know, nutrition around workouts and timing too. When I think about this, because of my work and this is interesting, right, we all come from a different place Most of my work has been around weight loss, physical transformation, and so when I think of nutrition, I tend to think of it from that perspective, and I tend to think of what we want to be doing is we want to be eating foods that are calorie sparse, yet nutrient dense. So that's the first thing. And then you want food that is hunger suppressing, because you don't want to be chasing around hunger and cravings constantly, and then I think you want food that is tasty enough, but not too tasty. Highly palatable, hedonistic foods are going to cause you to overeat, and so, from my perspective, that's how I look at it Calories sparse, nutrient dense, hunger suppressing and tasty enough, but not so tasty it's going to tend to make you overeat, and, to me, I think that that is the basics.

Speaker 1: 7:11

Now, of course we talked last time about the idea of structured flexibility. So you come in with these models and you essentially say I can look at my diet from these different parameters and then of course I have to adjust and, jeff, you alluded to this with you know, like methylation numbers and you know different micronutrient status and whether you tend to lose a lot of salt or need more salt, and there's some. And you know, I know, jeff, if you all don't remember from last time does a lot with genetic testing, which I think gets in to this aspect of nutrition. But I like the idea that we're starting broad, all of us and then we can begin to narrow down again, which goes back to that whole structured flexibility type of thing. But I unless you guys have anything else to say about that I really do think that we should take on the calorie issue because at least from if you look out there, there's so much that goes on.

Speaker 1: 8:00

Calories matter, calories don't matter. Like, what's the deal with calories? Certain types of calories, macronutrients are they more important than calories? All of these kinds of things. So any final thoughts on your general nutrition stuff that I just really want to hear what you both think about the calorie debate.

Speaker 3: 8:17

Yeah, let's dive into calories.

Speaker 2: 8:19

Yeah Well, I'll just say one more thing, because I love what, michael. I love those four F's. Man, I haven't heard that, but I like that framework a lot and that made me think of you know the levers that I advise people around when I'm talking about nutrition in general, and it is kind of about you know the quantity, and that's where we can get granular with the qualities, like the. You know what we're having on a caloric intake a day, the quality, so what you're deciding to put in there, and then the timing, which is where fasting comes in, right. So, as you alluded to, we get to do a lot of.

Speaker 2: 8:51

I get to look at everybody's genes and there are certain genetic tendencies and epigenetic tendencies that really tell us when timing may be the lever to pull versus quality or quantity, but pulling too many of those at once, I think that's what people really get stuck in. Sometimes they're going to decrease their quantity, decrease their overall energy intake, while they're trying to ramp up their exercise right, really common thing that we see. That usually does not lead to to really good gains and performance, for sure, right and function Um, and oftentimes we'll throw off the you know the, the hormonal balances that are so important at at progressing us and towards our goals wherever we want to go.

Speaker 3: 9:29

So yeah, yeah, and just to piggyback on that, you know I mentioned that last time that our body doesn't react well to, or it doesn't, it doesn't notice small changes, it doesn't notice incremental changes, but it does notice very quick, exponential changes, right. And so you know, when we talk about a diet designed to lose one pound a week or something like that, not only is it sustainable, but it keeps those hormones right. We have satiety hormones, right, that are released in the, in the gut or the brain, sometimes both the gut brain axis and uh, there there are hormones that that cause us to begin eating and then those that cause us to end eating, right, and those are orexigenic, and anorexigenic hormones is the technical term for those. And, uh, you know, those don't respond. I mean, they, they, they ramp up.

Speaker 3: 10:19

Really well, we don't want to lose weight, evolutionarily, right, we want to maintain our weight, which it, just in this environment that we live in, uh, is kind of counterproductive, right. But to store fat has a benefit when food is not abundant, right, and so our bodies are kind of designed to store fat, and those hormones have an important role in that. And so the more incremental we can do things, whether it's on a meal by meal basis, or a week by week or month by month basis, the more it allows those hormones to stay in in that range where we want them to be, and not get out of check. Whether it's insulin, you know, on a meal to meal basis, or whether it's, uh, you know, some of those rexigenic and and uh, uh, anti-rexigenic hormones.

Speaker 3: 11:14

Yeah, what is it? It's like ghrelin, is that one? Ghrelin, one is one that that, yeah, and most of these are tied to your circadian rhythm, right? Ghrelin is released by the stomach and and and causes us uh to be hungry, and and uh, in it there's uh. Yeah, I mean, we can, we can dive into the hormonal side of the side of things, but I think staying less technical is probably better.

Speaker 1: 11:28

Yeah, and then of course, there's glp-1, which is all the talk right now, the glp-1 agonist, which is an incretin released from the duodenum. So, like you know, we have this hormonal calorie debate, and you're hearing this a lot everywhere now. Right, and, of course, I've gotten in trouble in my because I wrote a book back in 2010 that really took on the whole calories versus hormone things, and at that time it was relatively controversial. But now everyone's saying hormones over calories or calories over hormones, and from my perspective, I go, you can't separate these two things, right?

Speaker 1: 11:59

Hormones impact calories, calories impact hormones. The things are important. I always like to say, though, you know, if you think hormones don't matter, then ask yourself how many calories does sleep have and how many calories does stress have? Now, of course, we can't eat sleep and we don't eat stress, but we all know everyone knows clinically, just in your own world that many people not all because stress can have, you know, can depress appetite in some people. But most people understand if I don't get good sleep or I'm stressed out, it is going to dramatically impact my appetite, my energy, my cravings and other things, and so I think it does tell us that calories and hormones are completely linked. I don't think you can separate the two really.

Speaker 2: 12:45

Yeah, yeah. So tell me about this what To get granular on the calorie thing. What is the question that you want to ask? Is it calories, calories, calories.

Speaker 1: 15:30

Yeah, it's kind of like this. I'll frame it up this way for you guys. So let's take an eight ounce chicken breast, right, no skin on it, you know, boneless, skinless chicken breast probably about 250 calories, 300 calories, 300 calories. Let's take a curler donut from Dunkin' Donuts right, probably about 300 calories right Now I ask the question.

Speaker 1: 15:53

So people would say, yeah, a calorie is a calorie from a definitional standpoint, but those 300 calories are very different, right, we know that we could probably the three of us can put down five curler donuts if we wanted to and want more, but no one's going to eat five chicken breasts and feel like they can eat more, and that, I think, is the argument.

Speaker 1: 16:10

So I'm I'm curious how you both see this argument. Should we be, for example, just purely counting calories, or should we be looking at the quality of the food? It goes back to your quantity, quality sort of argument, and or or is it different, based on the individual? And I'm just curious how you all work around this stuff when you're getting questions around this, cause some people do go, you know, I think a lot of people go well, I'm eating healthy, right, and then you, then you go well, those five handfuls of nuts. You had like quite to a thousand extra calories a day, and that matters, or you know, I'm uh cutting my calories down and I'm hungry all the time, and so it's like this idea of like. How do we find this balance?

Speaker 2: 16:53

yeah, yeah, um, there's a lot in there you're right, I think uh I think you know I always. I did this last time, and this is what I'm loving about this, jade, by the way, is that this is the second time we've done this.

Speaker 2: 17:05

So, I hope we wander into some space where there's some controversial views here amongst us, but I love that example is right on, because I like to look at this stuff again through an anthropologic lens. So if you think about the signals we get when we consume a lot of protein something like a chicken breast, something like, you know, maybe a couple of chicken, whatever you're into, but it's the same thing I think about when you made a kill in the Serengeti 10,000 years ago, walking across there with your tribe. That's how our hormones have evolved, our signaling systems until again like 100 years ago. You know. That's how we're genetically conditioned to release those hormones that make us feel full and stay full for a little bit. Right, I love protein as a caloric intake source and I do agree with you that you know things that are nutritionally dense and calorically is that how you put it?

Speaker 1: 17:58

Yeah, and calorically sparse it's calorically sparse.

Speaker 2: 18:01

We have to have some of that in our diet, but for me I love the idea of these small inputs of protein throughout the day that are pretty consistent, to keep us in hormonal balance and as a wonderful source of a slow burning calorie that induces satiety for longer.

Speaker 1: 18:17

Yeah, and we actually have research now that basically says there may not be an upper limit of protein, and they've done 3.3 grams per kilogram right, which is greater than a gram per pound, and we're actually seeing no downside to that in hunger suppression and perhaps muscle gain and fat loss just from that. Even at a recent study showing even at hypercaloric levels of protein perhaps people are not gaining fat from that. So that's something that we should all continue to watch out for. But I love this idea because I think more and more people are becoming savvy to it and what protein is actually doing.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Yeah, yeah, I think that you know the thing that protein I tell patients all the time is it is essentially if we're thinking about metabolic diseases, which is what I spend a lot of time dealing with. I know you do too and I know you're. It's always in the back of your mind, michael, but that the whole idea that you know a protein is kind of is metabolically neutral. That's the way I explain it to patients. You know carbs and fats not necessarily right. Some people actually. What we know about metabolic disease, developing insulin resistance, those kinds of things.

Speaker 2: 19:19

Now, for over 50% of Americans at least, that is actually usually a fat-driven thing. These animal fats, a really high animal fat diet. So again, going back to the quality of that type of protein you're taking in can turn on those epigenetic factors that induce more insulin resistance and maybe hormonal imbalances with these kind of brain-gut relationships that Michael alluded to. So I think people, again going back to the carb thing, sugar's gotten a really bad name here, but I think fats can be just as guilty with the epidemic that's sweeping not only America but the world now. So, and protein does not fall into that.

Speaker 1: 19:57

Going back to these very basic macro categories, yeah, and think about this too, right, I'm going back to the anthropological stuff.

Speaker 1: 20:03

Like you know, I know hunters who bring me venison and stuff like that, and those animals are incredibly lean, right, and so there are periods of time I know someone who hunted bear where he was like there's times when the bear meat is so fatty, but it's a very narrow time that that bear fat is super fatty and it's like late fall. Otherwise they tend to be incredibly lean, and it always it reminds me of kind of what you're talking about as well that if we look, it'd be very hard to find, you know, a very fatty animal as something that you could kill. Most of them are going to be incredibly lean.

Speaker 2: 20:39

Yeah, yeah, eating off the forest floor. I mean, that's, that's what I tell my folks, like, if you're eating something, it's eating off the ground. It's usually you're pretty safe there.

Speaker 3: 20:48

Yeah, yeah. So uh, let's already dove, dove deep.

Speaker 3: 20:54

So, I'm going to, uh, first address carbohydrates and then and then protein, and I think, with carbohydrates, again the rule of rule of three. Carbohydrates, again the rule of rule of three. Um, I think we talk about processed foods. Processed, you know, especially carbohydrates, um, and, and really, like I emphasize this is the last time mostly eating and and telling my clients to eat whole foods, right, and not the overpriced grocery chain, but unprocessed foods, right. And then we have processed foods and then we have ultra processed foods, right, and things like even just rolled oats are processed food, right, like it's not, it's not buying a bundle of oats from that are, like you know, shorn off the from the field, right? Baby carrots are a processed food, right, they don't, they don't grow that way, right. But that's not what we're talking about when we talk about processed food and that's not what the headline means when it says processed food is, you know, intake, is is whatever we're talking about ultra processed food, like bars and all the stuff.

Speaker 3: 21:59

Ironically, those that are doing, you know, longer and long distance endurance events are constantly eating to keep that quantity up, right, and so, from a, you know, and those aren't the longest living people, generally marathoners don't live longer than non marathoners, right, they live longer than people that are sedentary, right. But chronic disease and again it goes back to the last time we talked about inflammation, right, and all of those kinds of things. Eating ultra processed foods and, uh, high intensity, for, you know, our like dozens of hours a week, uh, exercise, both of those produce a lot of inflammation, right. And so that goes back again to the quality and getting those micronutrients, the anti-inflammatory, you know, foods to counteract all that inflammation, so kind of straight from carbohydrates there. But I think, you know, there I saw a study about a year ago that in college age, students who, uh, you know, are not necessarily training for anything, I mean, but just that that uh demographic, was eating something close to 80% of their food, of their calories, from ultra processed, I believe it, ramen and all.

Speaker 1: 23:19

Right, how much ramen Right, but if, if they're doing it.

Speaker 3: 23:22

At that stage. You know they're doing it. At that stage they're growing into adults that are probably doing a similar thing 100%, and that was not the case 50 years ago. And I think with a lot of the diets there's absolutely nothing. There's not necessarily anything right, but there's nothing wrong with the zone diet or the South Beach diet or your, your diet, right.

Speaker 3: 23:42

And when they were initiated, when the books came out because it was all started as books right Before they were were fads. The books as we talked about last time, it had a cutting phase where you cut, cut out all the crap and then you introduce things back in and it worked for people. And now if you take that book and you, you know and and you try to follow it If you followed it how they did, it would still work. If you follow it and you go to the store and you buy the branded products that they've developed around the South Beach and the Zone and the Adkins and all of this right, it's not going to work as well, because those diet fads from the last 30 years were all founded on eating unprocessed foods and minimally processed foods. We're all founded on eating unprocessed foods and minimally processed foods and when we're eating ultra-processed foods, which is now what's been introduced under those fads. It's not going to work, you're not going to lose weight, you're not going to get the results that you want.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Yeah, stephan Guillenet out of Washington State University talks about this a lot. He has a book called the Hungry Brain. I don't know if you two have read that, but that particular book, it reminds me of kind of what you're saying here and I always have. There was also a diet back in the day called the Shangri-La diet, which was essentially a bland diet. But anyway, guyenet talks about this idea of these highly processed foods. Obviously they don't have the nutrients in them, but the other thing they do is have a very high flavor hit and so they are combining sort of the tastes and textures of the combination of fat and sugar and salt and then add alcohol onto that and you got this sort of cafeteria palatable diet that the average American, literally in in Guionese work, is saying is driving the overeating. Which I find really interesting because I remember the old study where they basically this shangri-la diet, the bland diet, where they would give people essentially a slurry of cream of wheat in a thermos that you couldn't see and they said eat as much of it as you want to eat, and after a few days these people can only consume about 800 to 1,000 calories of this because the flavor centers in their brains were essentially not being pinged by this constant dopamine. So it brings up this other aspect of things right, where it's this taste and texture and how that's communicating to our gut and nervous system and our brain, causing us to eat more, and so that's a really interesting piece of this processed part of things and I do think it goes back to.

Speaker 1: 26:03

It is very easy to make a tasty food out of carbohydrates by adding sugar and or fat, and vice versa with fat. It's much harder with protein. Right, protein is going to have more of a normalizing effect, and think about it now. It's like oftentimes think of the potato and you look at at least one study, looks at the satiety index, which is highly controversial. The potato is like number one on that list in terms of hunger suppression.

Speaker 1: 26:28

However, you start adding bacon and chives and sour cream and all these other things, or a potato chip we all know those commercials you can't eat just one. All of a sudden, that potato turns into a never-ending feast, and I do think it's a really important point that you're bringing up here that people are not aware of, not just because they're nutrient sparse, that you're bringing up here that people are not aware of, not just because they're nutrient sparse, but because they are highly tasty, hedonistic foods, these processed foods and that includes the Atkins bars and the paleo bars and all the things that we're starting to see now- Well, it's no coincidence that most of these are chocolate covered, right.

Speaker 2: 27:01

Yeah, exactly, and I love, Jade, you mentioned that book, the Hungry Brain. I read that a while back, but it might have been that book. One thing that blew me away when I read that or a similar publication, was the fact that they used the same kind of. When they were looking at functional MRIs of people's brains and how these foods light up, they use consultants from the gambling world. I mean they said, hey, what do you guys use to keep people on these machines all day long? Yeah, they're like we want to see that pattern on this functional MRI to see what these foods are doing to people. 100% Right. I mean that's mind-blowing that the gambling industry has actually influenced our nutritional intake.

Speaker 1: 27:40

Yeah, and I do think you know you bring up such an important point, Michael, that I do think it is sneaking into the health food industry. It's like the health food industry is also a processed food industry. So we have to ask ourselves and we even see this in things as simple as whey protein versus pea protein versus casein Different proteins are going to have different hunger suppressing effects based on how they're processed. Based on how they're processed, and so it's just a really important, I think, thing for the listener to hear that may be part of what's happening with their nutrition, which I'll throw this out and see what you guys think.

Speaker 1: 28:15

I have a theory about the keto diet. Let's say there's two ways you can follow the keto diet. Right, you can do it a kind of a whole foods way. It's a very creamy, umami flavored diet, right. So, like if you follow the keto diet with you're just eating all the foods and not getting processed keto foods, you're going to be doing a creamy texture, primarily, and a very umami flavor diet. However, then you start adding in the bars with stevias and all the, even the natural sweeteners, and all of a sudden, you're getting this flavor hit, this sweet hit that is telling your brain something different.

Speaker 1: 28:46

I have seen clinically I have no research to back this up, but I have seen clinically the people who do a keto-based diet just off the regular foods that are umami and creamy based, you know, heavy creams, fatty meats, that kind of stuff eggs do better than the people who are doing these processed keto foods. And I'm wondering what you all think of that, because it does speak to this idea that we may be missing something very important by only focusing on macronutrients, micronutrients and calories, when we think about the signaling that these textures and flavors are giving to us.

Speaker 3: 29:21

Yeah, I wanna. I think we talked about this last time the adage if you're doing it correctly and you're not getting the results, then you're not doing it correctly.

Speaker 2: 29:33

You're stealing that from Jade's book. Yeah, I was reading it the other day, yeah.

Speaker 3: 29:40

And I think it was. I was just talking the other day about, like, the history of Gatorade, right, like not going anthropologically, right, but but Gatorade, you know, it was essentially made a name for Gator because it was developed as my, from my understanding, for the Florida Gator football team, right In hot, humid weather, right, they were having some, uh, you know what we would say like electrolyte imbalance, right, and some cramping and things like that, and so I think it was a trainer or something, right, developed a sports drink for these athletes, right. So if you ask yourself, I think this is the personalization, the individualization that we all, you know, kind of got to work with Uh, am I a football player in Florida in a, in a, in a, you know, player in Florida in a, in a, in a, you know, electrolyte deficient state? If the answer is yes, then reach for a Gatorade. If the answer is no, and you're sitting on your couch and you want a sugar sweetened beverage and you feel bad about drinking a Coke, so you drink, you know. Or soda, so you drink, uh, that as a soft drink. It's just another soft drink, it's just another, uh, you know, high fructose corn syrup based drink, right, and, and these bars?

Speaker 3: 30:51

You know cliff bars were developed, you know, for you know, when you're out on a trail and and you know you're an hour or so in, you've already burned 500 calories and you want something to keep you going, right? Not when you're at your desk and you're typing and you, you know, check what's in the drawer oh, I have a Clif Bar. And so stocking your kitchen or your backpack or whatever, or your saddlebag, if you're training for something, or your gym bag with the things that are really going to fuel you for the purpose that you're, you know what you're working towards, right, and? And so that then, step of another step back what, clearly identifying what are you training for what? What is your goal? And and then you can align. You know, and I mean this is this is just fundamental before we even dive into the all the intricacies of you know, how are you doing it, right? What are you doing Like? What is the what behind it? Before we figure out the how, what is your why? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:53

So I mean you guys, you both hit on this because you mentioned let's talk about a little bit of performance nutrition stuff, and then you already brought up the fact that so many of these foods that we do eat for performance are highly processed or at least processed. I mean, how do you guys feel about that? You know, doing, doing those kinds of that kind of caloric intake in the middle of, say, a, a two or three hour run or a, you know, a training session, that's keeping you in kind of a caloric deficit consistently as you're trying to continue going on.

Speaker 1: 32:24

Yeah, I think I'm where. I think I think is where you're going, michael, and I think I agree with you. I think in that particular context these things become a health foods even. It's kind of like take a Snickers bar, right, like if you're starving to death and you've been out on the plains of Africa for three days and haven't eaten anything, a Snicker bar is a health food in that particular context, right, you know. So I think that you know, and doing these hard workouts and you know you could take and we and we actually see this again the anthropological stuff Herman Ponser's work shows this.

Speaker 1: 32:52

I mean, the hot sub will climb up a tree, eat as much honey as they could possibly get, you know, just pure infusions of a simple carbohydrates, because they've been out in the heat all day. They're moving so much. It's a whole different thing than guzzling down a Gatorade or a Coke or something like that when you're not actually doing anything. So I do think this matters and I do think there's a place for this. Of course, we have to be careful, because we have a lot of people who will do that and then punish themselves with exercise to try to cancel out what they're doing, but I do think there is a time and a place for processed foods.

Speaker 1: 33:28

For guys like us, especially you two who are a little bit more endurance oriented than I am, I think that can be powerful. I think it is a slippery slope, though, right, because of the hedonistic effects. You can easily overdo these things, and I do think there's what I would call nutrition creep sometimes, and how I would explain this is someone goes on a keto diet. They drastically increase their fat intake, they go off the keto diet, but now all of a sudden, they're into bacon and eggs and butter, right. And so all of a sudden, there's this creep that happens, where now they're back on a standard American diet that is higher in fat than it would be otherwise, and so these are the things that I think actually you know happen in real life. But, to answer your question, I do think there's a time and a place for this, especially for guys who are training hard.

Speaker 2: 34:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I agree, and this is spoken somewhat, you know, anecdotally, from personal experience. I mean, there are times when a freaking you know caffeine loaded gel has saved my life. You know, three hours into it you know something like, oh God, I didn't bring enough, and you know that's usually the last thing I'm having. So I'm trying to actually eat some real food when I'm out there a little bit, you know to to your point, um, but yeah, I I think I agree a hundred percent.

Speaker 3: 34:48

Yeah, I'd say two things. I think, um, like, let's say you're beginning to train for your first marathon or you're going to do a century ride or a half Iron man triathlon All those are kind of around in the same timeframe. Iron Man's a whole different game 5k you probably don't need to eat anything, Uh, but you know you're, you're training.

Speaker 3: 35:06

Let's say, you know, 10 dozen hours a week or so. You don't want to get to the starting line and be nervous Like you. You know you're putting in the time right. So you're doing a two hour ride. I would say you probably don't need anything. And I think if you an hour into every workout have a bar, you have a gel an hour into your race your body's going to be expecting it.

Speaker 3: 35:36

Yeah, and I think you know I'm not talking about we could go down that path as well about training in a fasted state. You know what, if I, you know, do my workouts at, at, at 6am, and I haven't had anything, you know, before, I don't really think it matters and I think it's actually good to train your body to preferentially burn fat, to preferentially burn the most abundant. You know that you can carry because your glycogen stores can only, you know, carry you. So so far, and if you're pushing, pushing, pushing, especially in a racing standpoint, if you've only trained your body to depend on the carbohydrate that you have, whether you're taking it in or whether you're burning your glycogen stores, you're going to have a huge fat reserve that you're never going to be actually able to access. And so, from a, you know we use in the in in. You know CrossFit, I think, kind of popularized the term metabolic conditioning, right, and we're conditioning our metabolism in this case to actually use the fuel source that has the most number of calories. I mean, most people are walking around with days worth weeks worth of calories in their fat, right, but only a few days, maybe one day worth of calories in carbohydrate. So, you know, in a rested state, right, and any really. I mean, we talk about the fat burning zone as if it has a bottom level, right, we're in a fat burning zone right now, just sitting right, and so there's an upper level to the fat burning zone where, if you go above that, you start to produce lactate. You start to preferentially. You know you're always burning a little bit of carbohydrate, but that that uh, your ratio shifts when you're getting in that high intensity and even if you're just going up a hill or going up a flight of stairs, you're burning just a little bit more carbohydrate. But up until that threshold we're mostly burning fat, right, and so to teach the body to burn fat while we're training then allows us to perform better on race day by burning. You know, whatever that ratio needs to be and it probably will be a little bit more carbohydrate because we're pushing a little bit more. We're going at race pace, not training pace, and you know it depends on the sport and things like that.

Speaker 3: 41:17

But it's not easy to eat when you're running, as it is when you're biking, right, and so you don't see a lot of uh triathletes, like they're trying to get as many. It's also very difficult to eat when you're swimming. So, you don't see, you know most triathletes that I've worked with and in my experience, I'm trying to eat as much as I can on the bike because it's a lot easier to digest and to eat than when you're bouncing around and you know you have things jostling around in your stomach. So you don't want to go into that final leg of a of a try. You know, feeling depleted. You want to feel, you know, as you also don't want to feel, uh, you know, bogged down with eating too much food. But I think, uh, the more you can burn, we just have a tremendous amount of uh fuel reserve in our fat and so I think, from a training standpoint, leveraging that as much as we can is important.

Speaker 1: 42:07

Yeah, I, uh, I love that because I also think it speaks to the fact that this, this confusion that people feel like they have to have some kind of sports drink or a meal or something during their workouts, with most people who are just training to look good, not perform better.

Speaker 1: 42:22

This also matters, right, because it's like I think we would probably all agree that I don't see a benefit in that at all, with people eating things while they're training if they're just training to look good, right, it's like.

Speaker 1: 42:35

That to me seems incredibly counterproductive, and I do like that idea of increasing metabolic flexibility through how you, through how you you train.

Speaker 1: 42:44

Now, of course, we could talk about a timing, about what we do after that, because we also know and this is just just to throw a wrinkle in this we also also know that 75% of people based on the research that I talk about that in my book is that perhaps upwards of 75% of people respond to exercise with increased hunger, and this may be more prevalent in women.

Speaker 1: 43:08

And so then we have this certain thing where, okay, so if you're just training to look good, we don't necessarily want you eating things before your workout, but there might be an opportunity for us to time things a particular way after the workout to help suppress some of this hunger craving response that many people get and not everybody, of course, but it seems a lot of people. And then actually, there was actually just, I think, in USA Today or one of the popular magazines just last week, a rat study showing that they actually figured out the mechanism by how this is working in rodents, but we've seen this in adults for a while. So I'm wondering what you all think about that, the two of you. And then, is there anything that you might say nutrients, nutrients after and food after workouts, and how that might work for an athlete or for someone who's just trying to lose weight?

Speaker 2: 44:00

I love that you brought up metabolic flexibility. You mentioned metabolic conditioning, which CrossFit popularized, of course, but flexibility is something I talk to my folks a lot about, so hit on that real quick first. But I do think that, um, because it kind of comes back to this question of timing, I, I believe and I can't remember the last patient I didn't tell this at a 12 hour fasted time out of every 24 hour cycle, right, like whatever you're having in between there. We can get granular about that, but that helps induce this metabolic flexibility and unless, as Michael referenced, you're getting up at 2 am to eat every night, this is fasted time and so if you can cut your food off three hours before you lay down to go to bed, hopefully you're getting close at least to that 12 hours and that really helps to start work that fat burning engine up and get you more comfortable with being in that fasted state.

Speaker 2: 44:49

I tell people too, it's okay to be, to be hungry. Um, I feel like that's gotten a again. A lot of things like, yeah, I bet you can't eat just one and and you know it's hungry. You know every other commercial if you're watching mainstream TV that you're hungry. It's all about food and and and what we should. We should be treating this the symptom, almost, of hunger. Hunger is is very normal, right? It's a signal that we experience a lot, and so we talk a lot to our patients, and one of the things our health coaches do is just a lot of building that mental framework around allowing yourself to be hungry and realize, hey, I'm okay right now, everything's okay.

Speaker 1: 45:22

It's like a feeling. You need to be able to control it.

Speaker 2: 45:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:25

But you can't control it if you never feel it.

Speaker 2: 45:27

That's right. That's exactly right, tim. Right, that's exactly right. Um, timing around E, around uh, exercise though I do, I tell people, you know, in this two hour window after exercise and I'm, I'm, I'm ready to say something that's going to get Michael to really tell me I'm wrong here.

Speaker 2: 45:40

I love being wrong about these things so I can learn something. But I tell folks, you know, in that two hour window after after exercise, um, that it's, it's pretty much open, open game with what they eat. You know, I don't want them to go out and, just like you said, slam, you know, get a dozen donuts on the way home, but to make sure they're getting a, a uh, macronutrient and micronutrient rich meal during that time. Interestingly, in the research I've read, you know, I think a lot of people prioritize protein, protein, protein right after that. I don't know that that's that important.

Speaker 2: 46:09

I'd love for you to tell me I'm wrong here, but what I'm aware of is that it's really about definitely including, um, a protein dense. You know, portion of that is good, but that's also a great time to get a lot of healthy carbohydrates and not worry as much about what you're eating in that window. So if I'm talking to someone who's embarking in both of these paths. Hey, I'm ramping up my exercise, but I also want to really work on the timing or quantity of what I'm having. I'm like, hey, that's a two-hour kind of free zone for you when you leave the gym or get off the bike.

Speaker 1: 46:38

You're definitely uniquely insulin sensitive at that area, right, so it's a whole different metabolic state.

Speaker 2: 46:42

It is yeah, yeah, and that's what I tell people. This is a time when your levels of you are ready, like your body is primed, to take on calories right then, so you can feel safe in that time.

Speaker 3: 46:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we're being a little bit reductionist in terms of talking about macros and micros in exclusion of each other in silos, and that can be helpful. But I think if we talk about like a 2000 calorie diet, the the nutrition labels are are based on right, and we take maybe an 80, 20 perspective to that, like 1600 of those calories are should be, as you know, ideally maybe as, um, as nutritious as possible, right, like, and then 400 or yeah, 400 kind of enjoy, yeah, right. And if we're trying to lose weight, if that's kind of where your basal metabolic rate is, you're, you're, you're offset, right, you're not gaining or losing weight at that 2000,. Which is not most people, most people are not at that average. And that's just kind of for simplicity of what they came up with.

Speaker 3: 47:48

Uh, you know easily, if you're, uh, training, training, especially endurance wise, you could be 4000 calories a day, right, and does that mean we now need to with that 80-20? Now we need to get 3200 calories of high quality and you know, 800 of. Well, that's going to be a little bit more difficult because if we're talking about salad and broccoli and you-dense, calorically sparse foods, we're not going to have any time to train, because we're just going to be eating these fiber-rich, nutrient-rich foods right.

Speaker 1: 48:26

Not to mention gut function, as you're trying Right, right yeah yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: 48:30

And then I mean 4,000, that's. That's a low number, right. If you're training for, for radio, actually, I mean, probably just one gym session is going to get some of us in the room up to that that level, right, so we're talking 6,000, 8,000. I mean I do mountain bike rides where I've been out for 11 hours, right. So I mean that's a huge number. I'm not, I'm not eating salad on the bike, you know I'm not.

Speaker 3: 51:40

So there is a, there is a role for these more, uh, processed foods, right, these these less uh, uh, nutrient dense foods. Um, and then if you're going down on the spectrum, you know you want to lose weight, maybe you're cutting down to like 1500 calories for for a little bit of time, right, um, and you still though on that. In that case, maybe you're cutting out less of those, uh, you know, reward calories, because you do need those, those, those vitamins and minerals, you know there's, there's some basal level where we don't want to go below. I mean it's very unusual, except for iron or some of these, these kinds of things, to we're not getting scurvy anymore. You know, there's not nutrient deficiencies, because everything is fortified, I mean the, the beyond bars, I mean every cereal. You could eat tricks or fruit loops every day, and there's, you know they take it out, but they put the nutrients back in and a supplemented form, um, you know, foreshadowing a little that, uh, it's a sprinkling, a little supplement because we want to go in that direction, but, um, you know, we're, we're not, we're not in a nutrient uh deficient state. You know, we may, we may, benefit from from a little bit of enhancement through some kinds of supplements or or, or eating more foods or things like that. But I think, uh, quality, uh is is, you know, is is the goal ultimately. And I'll just say on this, I remember a study again from my grad school days.

Speaker 3: 53:08

It was a nutrition class where they were talking about, um, uh, using whole foods, not supplements, to ameliorate, um, uh, anemia. So it was people that that were were lacking in iron, right. And so they said how many bowls of spinach do they need to eat for 90 days? Let's say to to raise their like without supplementation, right. And this was back in the sixties, let's say. And so it was like two big salads of of spinach, uh, every day for 90 days. And then they repeated it later, maybe 20 years later, as it was like in the 90s and it didn't work. They're like we followed the protocol exactly and it didn't work. And they measured the iron in the spinach and it wasn't the same as it was 20 years before.

Speaker 3: 54:01

Wow Makes complete sense. And so when we talk about organic this is a point that I like to make with a lot of my clients A lot of times when we talk about organic and it's true of protein as well when we talk about grass-fed and free-range and all these kinds of things, right, it's not necessarily that it's the pesticides on the spinach that we're we're avoiding, right, it's what's not in it that is important, not just what is on it, you know. And so what happens with the? You know and I don't eat all organic to be to be transparent but the quality, not just from a taste perspective or things like that. But a carrot is not a carrot, two carrots they may look the same, but if you actually measure the nutrients in them, they're not necessarily the same.

Speaker 1: 54:54

Anyone who's been to Italy knows you take a tomato from Italy versus a tomato from the United States. It's a whole different ballgame.

Speaker 3: 55:01

Right, and you can taste the difference, but I think especially foods that are grown in the ground or, you know, very close to the ground, right, if you spray pesticides on them, those go, you know, and it rains and and they're uh, uh, you know, through the agriculture process.

Speaker 3: 55:17

All that leaches into the soil, right, and that's where it's getting the nutrients is from the soil, right, and any uh, you know, gardener at home knows that, like the, the soil leads from the soil right, and any uh, you know, gardener at home knows that, like the, the soil leads to the best the vegetables, you know, and so the quality of the soil leads to the quality of the, the fruits or vegetables, and uh, and so that that's why it's important, especially on these things, that, uh, you're, you're, you're going to eat a lot of, to eat the highest quality, because they're the most nutrient rich. And, you know, if it doesn't come with a label, we really don't know what's in it, you know, and it may taste better and maybe we're drawn to it for that reason. But yeah, all things are not created equal in fruits and vegetables.

Speaker 1: 56:01

And it makes me think of the practicality of all this honestly, because if you think about you know what we actually do as humans. We eat about the same 10 foods daily, right? We eat the same meals over and over again. So it does give us an opportunity as clinicians and as individuals. Listening to this is that those 10 meals. Pay attention to those 10 meals. That's what you're typically eating over and over again anyway, so pay very close attention to that. That's my first thought.

Speaker 1: 56:27

Then my other thought is that I think we can say and I talk about this in my book about metabolic toggles this idea of eat more, exercise more.

Speaker 1: 56:34

If you're exercising more, then you need to eat more, and some of that eating more can indeed include some of these processed foods, and we shouldn't be afraid of them, because you're not going to be able to get the nutrition and calories anyway unless you do that.

Speaker 1: 56:45

So I do think it's reframing this eat less, exercise more approach. If that's the only approach you have, then you look at everything through that lens and you have athletes looking at it through that lens, when an athlete does not want to be eating less and exercising more. In fact, the best athletes in the world would never do that right. They would never do that. They eat more to fuel the exercise, and so I do think we need to start expanding this conversation to it's not eat less, exercise more. It's also eat more, exercise more at times. And then there's sometimes where it's eat less, exercise less, like a hunter-gatherer might do, and so we have to begin to be a little bit more nuanced in these conversations. What I think you're both alluding to with the idea of an athlete and what they're putting in their bodies.

Speaker 3: 57:25

It's a great point, and I think one thing that I'll just add is sometimes people, especially when they're in a caloric deficit, they may actually the counterintuitive thing that just blows people's mind is when I recommend eating more to lose weight.

Speaker 2: 57:43

Yep, reverse dieting kind of.

Speaker 3: 57:46

Because when your body goes into again evolutionarily, when it goes into conservation mode, it holds on to every calorie. You give it right when it goes into starvation mode and so you can kick, kick it out of that mode by eating more and and it you know your body to personify this. It's like oh, we don't need to be as greedy with these calories.

Speaker 1: 58:11

And if we see the metabolism as a stress sensing and responding apparatus, this makes sense, right? Because one of the things it's going to do is it's going to measure the gap between calorie intake and output and that gap whether it's I'm eating a ton and not exercising, or whether I'm exercising a ton and not eating that gap is going to grow and our stress mechanism registers that gap, which is why we have dieters and chronic exercisers and couch potatoes All of them. They both have hunger, they both have cravings, they both have unpredictable low energy. Because it's the same response happening, because that gap in calorie intake and output is increased. And I think that's what's happening. I think it's a stress mechanism. Whether you're a couch potato or whether you're a chronic exerciser who's not eating enough, that calorie gap is going to cause issues.

Speaker 2: 58:58

I'll tell you one of the ultimate paradoxes that really sucks for the I love you've mentioned women before and kind of getting more gender specific about this this optimal energy availability, or OEA, that's become a really popular and well-researched phenomenon now since I think the IOC the International Olympic Committee published on 2022, published like 107 page statement about what a kind of epidemic this is becoming and the whole idea that you know, especially for females, like what you're saying, michael, their optimal energy availability is usually going to be around 45 to 50 kilocals per kilogram of body weight per day, as opposed to males who can actually get by on 35, 40, maybe up to 45, you know, kilocalis per kg per day.

Speaker 2: 59:46

So when you work that out, when I'm talking to a and this is going to be more impactful in those perimenopausal years for women in the forties and fifties. So you know and unfortunately they get this message because our society sends this message all the time you got to look this certain way. You got to you know, you got you got to cut calories and exercise more to be in the right, in the right shape and it really I think we have really solid research to back up what you're saying right now. That actually, especially for females, oftentimes it's a problem of increasing calories to decrease that stress response in the body. That's resulting in higher insulin levels and more cortisol circulating. That's going to put you in this fat storage mode, cause you're sending that message that, hey, we're on the Serengeti, we got a pride of lions chasing us and we haven't seen food in a couple of days because we can't stop to hunt, right? So A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 1:00:36

And actually if you look at Herman Ponzer's work and Apple's work, they both look at. Herman Ponzer's work is the work on basically some of this. The Herman Ponzer's work is the work on basically some of this. The idea that exercise, calorie burn, is not additive, it's constrained. So I'll just briefly explain it to the listeners and you guys can comment on it. But basically what that means is we usually think that if our basal metabolic rate is, we burn 2,000 calories at rest and we go for a 300-calorie workout, what we think is we burn 2,300 calories. What Herman Ponzer's work shows is that after a couple of weeks you're budgeting, your basal metabolic rate starts to budget and so you're right back at 2000 calories again, and so that's the first thing that's happening, and there is some indication that women may have more of this response compared to men.

Speaker 1: 1:01:21

And then the other thing is the idea of hunger and craving responses in regards to exercise, which also women may be having more of that response, and this would make sense, simply that they are the gender of child bearing, and so this would make sense from a stress stat perspective, that they're going to be a little bit more sensitive and refined in how they manage their caloric reserves, and we are seeing this.

Speaker 1: 1:01:45

It's not conclusive yet, but we're seeing this being hinted at in the research that women may get more of a constrained metabolism through exercise. They also may be getting more of a hunger craving response with exercise. Of course this is, you know, individualized, but it does bring up a really interesting thing because, back to the hormone conversation, you know, when you, when progesterone kicks in after the luteal phase, that does make the body more insulin resistant, it does make it a little bit more stress reactive than when estrogen levels are higher, estrogen kind of being the female equivalent of testosterone plus it's it's kind of a much more nuanced hormone than testosterone. But it's a beautiful discussion because I think it does start to go yes, there are differences between men and women and yes, we have to maximize this individuality between each person. So it's a really powerful thing to begin to look at and I think it does begin to explain a lot of what we might see in terms of complaints that women have versus complaints that men have around dieting and performance.

Speaker 2: 1:02:46

And not just performance, just body composition changes, right. I'm not getting where I want to be. And well, you're underfeeding yourself, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:02:54

Yeah, thoughts, michael, yeah, I just want to zoom out again.

Speaker 3: 1:03:00

You were taking that in I just want to zoom out a little bit again and uh, again, and and and kind of look at why we're eating and how we're eating and why the importance of those and and so I think, why we're eating, uh, energy versus hunger, right, Um, or boredom, or stress, right, um, and but that you know when, when someone is uh, is exercising a lot, um, you know, especially like doing long distance running or or, or biking or whatnot, a lot of times you don't have that much, uh, appetite, um, you know when you're actually doing that, that activity, right. And so I think, if you're really mindful and you dial in to the body sensation, you rarely feel hunger in your belly, but you might feel like, wow, I'm low on energy, and that's the state that I've sort of been in for the last couple decades. I think is that what cues me to eat is when I feel low on energy. I don't generally feel it in my belly, but when you're eating a lot of processed foods and things like that, um, and especially when, when your blood sugar spikes up and then crashes down, you do feel it in your belly, you know. And so that's one thing, and then, and then I think how we're eating really matters too.

Speaker 3: 1:04:22

And whether we're being mindful or whether we're multitasking right Are we? Are we scarfing something down while we're continuing to work through lunch? Right Are we? We sitting down either by ourselves or with others? And, and you know, are we eating socially or or solitarily? You know that, and just the speed at which which we're eating, all of these actually, I think, matter to our body. You know, whether they they're the priorities for us, that matters. How it's uh, digested and absorbed, and, and, uh, and and. So these are important considerations, not trying to make it even more more complicated, actually trying to just back up away from all of the minutia and just oh, you're personalizing a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:05:06

Yeah, like ask yourself these questions why are you eating right now? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:05:10

Yeah, and then beyond the, the, the, the, the, what, what should you eat and how should you eat? Just like it's like, when you're sitting down to a plate of food, you know, regardless of what's on it, what is that process? And, uh, you know we could look at fitness and performance in the same way. You know, just like what, what are the big picture things that often get overlooked?

Speaker 1: 1:05:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it might be a good time for us to go ahead and start wrapping it up and just kind of give our, give our takeaways in terms of, uh, what we would want people to take away from this discussion or what we think are the most important things, and I hope you all listening can kind of get. It's like you know, when you're talking to three experts around this, it can seem to get deep into the weeds at times, but that's why I think it's good that you brought this up, michael, just to kind of pull back and go okay, so how can we make sense of this then? What are the most important components?

Speaker 2: 1:06:08

And I don't know, jeff, you want to kind of just wrap up your thoughts and then we can go around the room.

Speaker 2: 1:06:10

Yeah, man, I think you can say it in two words that you guys have already brought up, but it's metabolic flexibility. And for that, to you know, I think again, I like going back to those three levers, um, thinking about the quality, quality, quantity and the timing. And so, for me, I am a big believer um in spending some time at a fasted state because, as you referenced, jade, we are incredibly efficient homeostatic machines. We adjust to things quickly, right, so that it's going to be important every now and then to throw some shockwaves into your body around what you're doing. So I'm a big fan of spending some time in a fasted state. I tell a lot of my folks to you know, hey, one day a month, try and work up to a 24 hour fast, you know, and and for some people, if there are medical reasons, maybe more often Um, but I think whatever you can do to induce more metabolic flexibility into your life, introduce that um, that concept more um concept more, you're going to end up succeeding.

Speaker 1: 1:07:07

Yeah, I don't know how I can improve on that, because I would 100% say the same thing, jeff Quality, quantity, timing. I love the idea of we have all this fasting stuff To me. I'm like everyone should be doing a 12-hour fast. There should be equal time with and without food. And just to add things onto that, I would just say one of the things I think is very important about this is that if you are an athlete, don't get it twisted with eat less, exercise more.

Speaker 1: 1:07:31

There are other ways to approach this For you. You're probably going to want to eat more, exercise more, and then you know, listening to what Michael said about and when you do that, you may need to focus on calories. At times when you're really outputting a lot of energy and not worry so much about, you know, all the high quality foods, get those in. But once you start really ramping up your exercise, you want to be in that eat more, exercise more sort of category, and I think that's really you know about it. From my perspective on this, we can talk about supplements at other times, but to me you know a good multivitamin, maybe some fish oil. You know, um some basic things. I think that's pretty much where I would be come down on this.

Speaker 3: 1:08:14

Cool, I think I'll just add one, one more thing that we haven't talked about, which is variety. And uh, you know, I think when you're beginning anything, whether it's an exercise regimen or eating, or you know dieting, changing things in a healthier direction consistency is really important. But then you reach a plateau, right? Whether it's you know, your strength or your diet, uh, your, your diet, and even eating the healthiest foods, whatever you know you could, the top dozen healthiest foods, if you eat just those 365 days a year, you're probably missing some things that you could get from other foods, right? And so I think you know how. How do you do that? Uh, easily, you eat more seasonally In the winter, eat more grounding foods and, you know, warming foods, and then in the summer, eat more cooling foods. That's an easy way to do it.

Speaker 3: 1:09:17

Another way to do it is to go to the farmer's market and buy what's local. You know and I think that's more important to me proximity rather than eating organic and things like that. But if you eat locally, if you live in an area where there's there's a lot of agriculture, like California or or, or here in the South, um, and then, or just buying on sale, because the grocery stores are getting things often locally or they're getting what's abundant in that season and it tends to be cheaper, and they pass that savings on to you, uh, through through those items being on sale. And so you know, as you're walking through the grocery store. Just you know, I always like to, at the farmer's market or at the grocery store, just get something. Every time I go get something that I didn't get last time.

Speaker 2: 1:10:00

Yeah, something new. Yeah, just just well, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 3: 1:10:06

And and something new. Yeah, just that's right, that's right, um and and and. You know, with that seasonality, they, they roll. You don't see, and I think that's you know. We can now get strawberries year-round. We can now get these things they're not very good in the off season, you know, because they're coming from chile or whatever but the you know, the strawberries from watsonville, california, that are greenhouse, are grown or better, and then the ones that are grown in, in, you know, in a farm down the, down the road or carolina, or even better, you know so so that the variety I think is is important, and we didn't really touch on that before, so that's where I'll leave it yeah, so I got two more questions for you guys.

Speaker 1: 1:10:36

one question is uh, I'll ask both of you and then I want you to tell, tell people where they can find you, but what's the number one meal that you eat? Like, if you had to say the meal I eat most often, jeff, like what would it? What would it be? Honestly, man, I had this sardines, sardines.

Speaker 2: 1:10:51

Yeah yeah, I think I probably eat it. Super nutrient rich, healthy food. Eat a can every day. Yeah yeah, already had them this morning.

Speaker 1: 1:10:57

Yeah, how about you, michael?

Speaker 3: 1:10:59

I love kicking off my day with with right now it's eggs. Yeah, just getting that protein in and mixing in some veggies or leftovers from the night before. And, yeah, just making sure the day starts with a high-protein meal.

Speaker 1: 1:11:15

Yeah, and for me it's probably chicken breast on a low-carb tortilla with arugula, like I pretty much crush that. It's a staple. I love that Pretty much all the time and it changes, you know. But anyway, dr Michael Donovan, dr jeff graham, where can they find you? Michael, I know people are going to want to get in touch with you.

Speaker 3: 1:11:31

We talked about this last time. Sure, sure, michael donovan, coachingcom is the is the best, uh, best way.

Speaker 2: 1:11:36

You can just message me directly there michael donovan, coachingcom and jeff so you asked me this last time I was like I need to get a better professional Instagram account. So now you can find me at wilderjg on Instagram and, of course, I work with a company called Wild Health and if you just search Wild Health, you'll find me under providers there Wilderjg on Instagram and at Wild Health yeah, and at Wild Health also.

Speaker 1: 1:12:03

Thank you, guys, so much for your expertise. Really appreciate the time and for all of.