Individualizing Health, Fitness & Performance with Jeff Graham & Michael Donovan- Ep. 260

Speaker 1: 1:25

All right, everybody, welcome to the podcast special podcast. Today I have two of my new brothers, who are part of a men's group that we all are part of. Shout out to our boy, Kelly Gardner. I have with me Jeff Graham, Dr Jeff Graham, MD and Dr Michael Donovan, PhD, and today we're going to discuss how to individualize lifestyle, health and fitness. So for those of you who are performance oriented, you're going to get a little something here, because these two guys are very fit athletes and have done lots of different things. Both of them are heavily involved with CrossFit, but they've done a lot of different things. And, of course, we're going to be talking a lot about how to individualize health.

Speaker 1: 2:10

And just before we came on live, Michael, you were talking about this idea that you know it's kind of overwhelming in the world today of health and fitness. Right, it's like incredibly complex. You know, we've got the Hooperman Lab podcast, We've got the Peter Atiyah podcast, We've got messages coming at us from left and right in social media, Facebook. Who knows what to do anymore. Now here's three guys who eat, live and breathe this stuff. How do you see this problem with individualization and helping people? You know, sort of find the sort of way that is going to work best for them find the sort of way that is going to work best for them.

Speaker 2: 2:55

Yeah, it's a question we're always trying to find the answer to for every individual. I think there's a happy medium between exactly what's good for you, because if you um, if you stress out too much about you know exactly what I should eat, what's the optimal workout, you know exactly for me, then you're going to be so stressed the fuck out that you know. Then you have to battle that, uh, that element. But you know what works for you or works for for jeff is not going to necessarily work for me. So I think there's a happy medium between what's optimal and what might work for someone else but isn't really tailored or individualized for you.

Speaker 1: 3:41

Yeah, it's interesting, right? It's like if I sit here and stress about all the different things that I could be doing and trying to find exactly what's going to work for me, I might be searching forever. So what I like, jeff, is I like the term, and I'll throw this term out at you and I want to see what you think about it. I like the term structured flexibility, and I like this term because I feel like when we start out, we absolutely require a structure. The problem is is that people can get stuck in structures and, from my perspective, there needs to be some flexibility in this. We need some guardrails, right, we need a place to start, but then we need to learn how to be flexible within our own metabolism, our fitness level, our physical abilities. So I'm wondering what you think about that as a first step to helping people begin to get started with this.

Speaker 3: 4:30

Yeah, yeah, I love that term. I haven't, I haven't heard that. But the structured flexibility I actually think something that I like to you could almost make analogous to that as adaptability to multiple different modalities as you build upon that, like you're talking about being within those guardrails. You know we're. Since you're talking about guardrails, we use the analogy of bowling, but you know you get the bumpers in there at first, making sure you're actually staying in the lane. As you begin to feel comfortable staying in the lane, you maybe put a little spin on the ball as you're getting used to seeing how it moves along the track, going towards the pins, and you're probably going to change your stroke up throughout to to get more precise or more accurate at any given point. Um, I know, you know, with the patients I deal with and, and personally too, my experience has been that when I build too much structure, I get bored right, I get um, I'm doing the same thing over and over again. It's hard to do that.

Speaker 3: 5:29

I think you have to do some things that are more interesting and outside of the what you have, the structure you've built. So you know, example would be going, going to the gym every day at these hours and going to, you know, the yoga studio or whatever it is. I'm doing this class every week. Man, you do a couple for some people. A couple of months, a couple of years. Of that, you a couple for some people. A couple of months, a couple of years of that, you just you're going to lose the passion you know often. So for me it helps to think about establishing those guard rails, making sure that I'm not falling out of certain parameters. But then, man, throwing in a day of randomly putting the running shoes on and stepping out the door or going out on the mountain bike ride when I normally would have gone to the gym, keeps things a lot more interesting. And then I'm more grateful when I do get back to those places that have been part of the backbone of my structure after I've done something like that.

Speaker 1: 6:17

Yeah, let's, let's. Let's begin this discussion with us because you know, you got got three guys who were all heavily into weightlifting, right, I think you guys are a little bit more cardio oriented than me. I've been a power lifter and a bodybuilder and not been so into cardio, but I did spend the last decade in the CrossFit world. But if we're going to talk about where people start as a structure and let's just talk about for the average person, then we'll get into the athletes too, because I've got two athletes here with me, so we would be remiss if we didn't cover that. But let's talk about the average person who's looking for what we might say, you know, health and vitality and weight loss, right, where do you think the structure starts with this? Because obviously there's a lot of different places we can go. There's intermittent fasting, there's keto diets, there's, you know, vegan diets, and everyone has their sort of flavor that they're going to tell you to start with.

Speaker 1: 7:13

But I'm wondering if the three of us and, by the way, just so you all listening know we've never had this conversation, right? So this is one of the first times the three of us have ever sat down and talked, and so what we wanted to do for all of you is just take three guys who've been eat, living and breathing this stuff and sort of tell you how we think about this and see where we converge. So you're certainly going to see some differences among the three of us. I'd be surprised if the three of us agree on everything. But let's talk a little bit about what would you and we'll start with you, michael what would you say are the structures for you know, sort of health, fat loss that you would say are the big ones that, uh, most people need to adhere to. And then we can get into the flexibility a little bit and just to clarify we have three hours here right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:02

Uh, you know, I, I think one of the things that gets overlooked, um, is personality, and um, what, what is your personality, uh aligned itself to in terms of habits and what's worked for you in the past? So, whatever it is, we were talking about playing a musical instrument before you know. Do you like being around people? Do you like a group setting, right, or do you, are you more of an introvert and you just want to have, you know, put on a video at home or have a home gym or whatever? Um, but, and, and you know, do you like more structure? I was working with a client, uh, recently who, uh, I said, you know, this is what you're going to do every day, and they couldn't do that to the T and they were like I didn't know what to do, and so they would do like, tell me what to do within the week and then I can fit that into my schedule, you know.

Speaker 2: 9:00

And so you know, taking this question kind of a different direction, but, you know, sustainability, number one is the primary thing you know, especially when you're first starting out, you know, I'd like to say, like, find a time every day that you can do one pushup. I think, taking this from atomic habits, right. And if you can, if you can find a time every day for like 30 days that you can just do one pushup, you can probably do 10 pushups at that same time, right. You can probably do anything fitness wise at that time, because you found a time that works within your schedule. So, from a personality and lifestyle standpoint, just keeping it super, super simple, and then we can layer on things.

Speaker 2: 9:40

But if you don't have that foundation of what works for you, you know, and so this, this could be taken from your, your work, from relationships, from from what, from any place in your life that you've had success. What are those things that were there to support you in that? Is it accountability to a coach or a mentor? Is it accountability to your family or a boss or whatever, or just to yourself or whatever, or just to yourself? You know, but I think that's that's the foundation for me. And and what first comes to mind when I, when I'm thinking of someone that's just beginning this journey.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Yeah, I love this because, you know, we we right away. The structure is already becoming individualized. When we hear Michael talk, I have a model that I oftentimes use, called the four P's. It's basically like look, you have your unique physiology, your unique psychology You're talking about a psychology piece here but then you have your personal preferences, which you're also alluding to, and then you have your practicals, right. Like you know, some of us live in food deserts. Some of us have a Whole Foods right across the street. So, physiology, psychology, preferences and practicals it's really interesting that you went there right away. It's like what can you actually do? That should begin, sort of the structure. So, jeff, do you have thoughts on that?

Speaker 3: 10:55

Yeah, so fitness weight loss.

Speaker 1: 10:59

Fat loss yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:00

Fat loss and optimization.

Speaker 1: 11:01

Yep Health, fitness, fat loss.

Speaker 3: 11:03

Yeah. So I mean, and this is, I'm going to test the waters a little bit because you guys may disagree with me here, but I would say with the patients. I see, and it's interesting because with what I do I have the opportunity to look at people's genes and look at their genetics and then advise around diet and lifestyle. So that gives me a little bit of a leg up here. But I would say the common denominator, kind of approaching it from more of a public health standpoint, as we were talking about what can everybody do, point as we were talking about, what can everybody do to the common denominators that I feel like with diet specifically, um are going to be a high antioxidative diet, um, and a diet that is going to be rich in omega-3s and those interact, those, you know, go together some because high dose omega-3s can work as antioxidants. So, um, you know we're thinking about, like the blue zones where the people are longest lived and have the healthiest lifestyles. That's a very common denominator in those places. Second part of just of health is, I mean, as Michael's referencing, it's just move, just physical movement, and if you're starting with one push up a day, great, if you're starting with taking one lap around the block once a day, great. So I think those two are key components of just starting your health journey.

Speaker 3: 12:10

Um, as far as fat loss, I'm a big fan of this idea of musculosentric medicine. So, you know, I like to think of the, the, the muscles in the body as they're really, they function almost on the level of an endocrine gland. So the more muscular tissue you have, the better you're going to metabolize any, any nutrients you're taking in, macros and micros, um, the the better your glucose is going to be right. The biggest glucose sink in the body, maybe outside the brain, is going to be you know your, your quads and your glutes and the. You know the big muscle groups of the body, um, so I like thinking about that.

Speaker 3: 12:46

I, and always I can't remember the last patient I didn't advise to hey, man, you need to start lifting heavy shit. You know we got to do some of this, got to do some hard work there. And then, yeah, fitness. I do think, like you know, so we're taught if we move into that realm. And again, you know, these are Venn diagrams that overlap a lot, but that's where I feel like what Michael does he's really got it dialed there and what he's done with that.

Speaker 3: 13:08

That becomes such an individualized discussion based on someone's goals. And then, for what I do, we'll talk about someone's goals but then come back and say, yeah, I know that you want to get your hemoglobin A1C better, get better glucose control, and really the way to do that right now, I know you're, you know you're, you're running 50 miles a week. You're not doing any lifting. You know we need to actually increase the amount of surface area you have to burn up that glucose. So, um, I think it's an always an interesting conversation as you're individualizing. To come back to the health concerns, you know, kind of, as you're saying, get back to that basic level and say, no, we're going to go after this, but we need to modify a few things. That might help both facets.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Yeah, it's interesting, right, it's like we're already converging in my mind. I'll just reinforce back to you and then you guys can say whether you agree with this or not. But it does start to harken back to this idea of naturalistic living. You know the so-called ancestral ways of doing things. When I'm listening to you, both from my perspective, you know we have to move right. You know we can determine what that's going to be based on our preferences and our sort of psychology, but we definitely have to move.

Speaker 1: 14:21

And then you know you're adding in another, you know sort of element here, Jeff, which is you got to lift weights, probably because we certainly did that. So we walked around and we lift and we hold things and we sprinted and we did other things that were more than just moving from point A to point B, that were challenging our muscles. And so right away what we're seeing, I think and of course we'll start to tease this out so you guys can hear us I hear movement, I hear lifting or doing something that uses your muscles. And then I'm also hearing sort of this idea of a natural diet, because if we're talking about antioxidants and we're talking about fruits and vegetables there, if we're talking about omega threes, we're talking about wild game, we're talking about fish, we're talking about things that you can pick, pluck, kill in the fields, and this is starting to converge on a potential structure.

Speaker 1: 15:17

Am I missing anything there? You think, Because that, to me, is beginning to be something that we are converging on, and Michael kind of alluded to it. But when you move, make sure you're doing some things that you can do and want to do, so that you're consistent with it. But at least we know those elements have to be in place, yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:34

If I can say one caveat to that, so I'll hand over to Michael too. But that a common metaphor or analogy I use with my patients is you know, if you think about it, and I love what you just said, I love, I like to say I wish I hadn't gone to med school sometimes because I really wanted to be an anthropology PhD. I love that view of medicine. And if you think about the fact that we didn't have all these calories around us and preserve foods until basically World War One Right Like that was that was 100 years ago that we really started having this caloric excess all the time and I love what you said Up until that point we were forced to move to get food.

Speaker 3: 16:09

We were forced to eat things that hadn't been through some sort of processing already that might change the chemical structure of those things that put in our body. So yeah, I love that idea of returning to our wild type genetics, how we've evolved for 120,000, depending on how far you want to follow it back, maybe 1.2 million years. But yeah, our genes are not built to deal with what society offers us today.

Speaker 1: 16:34

Yeah, and Jeff, you alluded to something that's really interesting I just want to make sure the listeners catch this is that our food, when we're eating natural food, becomes signaling molecules. So it's not just calories, it's not just nutrients, it's actually information for our physiology about what's going on in our environment, and so when we divorce ourselves from that, there are some downstream consequences to that. So the natural diet, that structure, takes that into a way, and and often we talk about what so much- what?

Speaker 2: 17:16

what should I eat? What should I? You know, how should I move right and uh? And I think the why is is clarifying those goals right and whether it's performance or longevity or weight loss or, you know, aesthetics, just having a better looking physique, right and um, well, I want to look good naked man, I mean vanity matters we all do period. Uh, about a year ago I started going to a chinese medicine doctor and the word that we just don't use that much, you use the word diet right.

Speaker 2: 17:54

There's a natural diet right, and diet has so many meanings and connotations, and often negative ones, and the word that I feel like doesn't have a negative connotation in any circle is nourishing nourishment right. In any circle is nourishing nourishment Right. And so when we talk about foods that nourish you, that depends on what your physical state is, or emotional state is right now, and and it's, you know, the Eastern sort of concept of the doshas and and the Ayurvedic and everything.

Speaker 2: 18:30

But I think there's a blending that really makes sense in that and uh, you know, I was sort of deficient in, I needed to nourish my blood and I needed to nourish, uh, the yin, because I'm so young, I'm so go, go go, you know, and, and and, interestingly, the the list of foods that nourish both yin and blood were were similar, and so I started eating, eating more of those foods, and I felt better. You know, and it's not a vegan diet or a carnivore diet or any of these kinds of things. It's a list of foods that, over centuries, you know, they've, uh, they've, they've found. You know, really, really, uh, cultivate that and and and, uh, bring you back in alignment. What were those foods, by the way? Um, it, it's, uh, I mean it's, it's grounding foods, and I think, I think real, I mean it's like meat, fruit, vegetables, stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 19:30

I mean it's, it's it's all.

Speaker 2: 19:30

I mean it's, it's grounding foods and I think I think real, I mean it's all. I mean it's all whole foods. I mean there's no, there's no, you know processed foods on on the list, but it yeah, it's legumes and and and some grains and and um you know, but I think it doesn't say eat this amount of this, right, it's just.

Speaker 2: 19:46

Here's a list. Eat an abundance of these kinds of foods and avoid the strong and pungent foods or whatever you know. And it's broths and you know bean bone broths and things like that that are warming and the kinds of things that, again, yin is like the kind of cultivating the parasympathetic.

Speaker 3: 20:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:09

You know it's that relaxation, the, the, you know grounding, and so I think if we just pay attention, uh, to you know how we feel like immediately after the, you know, three to 30 minutes after we eat something, our food's going to tell us what it's doing for us, you know, and there's times when we're tired and we need a little coffee. Uh, you know, but know. But. But if we're always reaching to that, you know, for that, you know, if we check in before we eat and we check in right after we eat, we're probably going to notice, you know, what that food's doing, doing for us, doing to us.

Speaker 1: 20:43

Yeah, and this brings in the flexibility piece. Now, right, because now we essentially go. We eat a particular diet Right, essentially go, we eat a particular diet right, we have this structure. We begin eating in this structure that we all talked about mainly natural foods we're moving, we're lifting and then we have to check in with our body. Right, our body's talking to us all the time. It's talking to us through biofeedback sensations, hunger, how does a meal keep us full, fill us up fast and keep us full for long? Are we having cravings for junk food? What's our energy like? Is it stable and predictable? What's our exercise performance and exercise recovery? Very important to the three of us. Then there's things, like you know, for women and men libido erections, menstrual function and then signs and symptoms of disease headaches, joint pains, things like that. So I think, when we talk about this structure, so we say OK, so now we have this structure, we have these guardrails, and then we essentially go.

Speaker 1: 21:39

Now you need to tap in and see how this diet, how this program, is actually doing for you, and there's a sort of biofeedback aspect to this. How does the body feel? Right, and that's very individual, like Michael you were saying, and I just felt better. So, for those of you listening, what might that be? Well, hunger, energy, craving, sleep, mood, all digestive function, all this stuff goes into it. So it's about being aware of your sort of physiological responses. And then, of course, you know we can go into some of the stuff Jeff does too, right, and then I do, running a lot of different labs hemoglobin A1C, blood glucose, triglycerides, lipids. You can also look at that. So from my perspective, I go now we're getting somewhere with the flexibility.

Speaker 1: 22:21

If this approach that you're choosing for yourself is keeping your biofeedback stable and your energy what I might call hunger, energy and cravings are heck, hec keeping your heck in check hunger, energy and cravings. Or HEC H-E-C keeping your HEC in check, hunger, energy and cravings in check. That's one sign, right. And then, ok, now your blood labs are optimizing and moving in the proper direction and and let's say, your body composition is attaining and maintaining optimal body composition. If you have those three things, then maybe that structure, now you tweak it and adjust it to achieve those three things, and maybe now we're homing in on the flexibility aspect of the individual plan, right? So structure is hey, whatever, this diet is natural diet. We talked about moving, lifting, and then, of course, hunger, energy and cravings, or biofeedback, and check parameters such as blood labs and body composition. That tells you, I think, that you're heading in the right direction with this plan.

Speaker 3: 23:17

We're the wrong direction.

Speaker 1: 23:18

Yeah, right, like, as you've noted, yeah, if it's going in the other direction, then you know.

Speaker 3: 23:22

One thing I love about your work and one of the foundational messages of what you do, jade, is the metabolic flexibility. Right, like we have to be flexible across multiple domains, and for me that means, hey, it's okay to actually I love the heck acronym, but I actually have become I'm a fan of being hungry sometimes, like it's good to again referencing our genes we have evolved to be hungry sometimes.

Speaker 1: 23:47

And maybe it's just about being hungers in control and not controlling you, right? So I agree, getting the skill to be hungry and feel that yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:55

Yeah, and recognizing that that's not that's, it's not bad, it doesn't mean something's wrong, you're just hungry. It's a feeling, um, learning to, to work through some of that. But uh, yeah, I, I love what, those kind of three things you're checking in on and I am a big fan of. Like you said, we do a lot of some performance stuff, performance optimization with higher level athletes, but but a lot of what we're doing is just our, you know, midlife 40 to 60 year old patient who's saying, hey, you know, things are changing, what's the right next step for me? And a lot of that.

Speaker 3: 24:29

You know we guide, obviously, through blood work and genetic testing stuff. But I mean it can be a lot simpler than that. Right, it doesn't have to be that deep and doing. You know, I was saying, like you know what we measure, we modify. So measuring things and if it's just a subjective scale, your hex scale every day like, hey, how did this go today? Was it 10 out of 10 or was it seven out of 10, you know, versus wearing something like a whoop or some sort of HRV monitor or bio monitor that can give you a lot of useful feedback as you are deciding you know whether a certain lifestyle.

Speaker 1: 24:59

Which, by the way, all three of us have one on, don't we? Yeah? So that's another thing for the listeners. Like, all three of us are wearing some type of some type of thing. That's measuring. Yeah, I'm going toM and my aura ring. So it's interesting. We all are looking into this and those biofeedback sensations are getting.

Speaker 3: 27:52

We can now measure more objectively, you know, than we did before, for sure, yeah, I uh, I don't know what you guys feel like I mean another big thing that comes up for me a lot, um, and and I love reading about this in the literature, I would say right now the stuff that I'm reading seems to be two areas seem to be really hot. One is gut health. Of course we're realizing what a master player the gut is, you know, for so many important things in the body obviously digestion, but you know, immune system and a healthy brain. Really right, like the signaling between the brain and the gut is often so many people and that can be largely modified through, you know, microbiome adjustment, dietary adjustment. But the other thing is sleep, right, I feel like this pendulum has has swung so far in one direction.

Speaker 3: 28:39

As a, as you know, the the wealthiest country in the world and the most productive society, you know most people would see us as um have way overdone it, right, sacrificing health for wealth, and that's something that I can't, you know I can't. It's probably the hardest conversation that I have with folks that come in contact with. Like you know, hey, you're doing all these things right, but you're sleeping five and a half or six hours a night Like you are not letting that reset happen and that throws off that whole HPA access right and it's going to result in adverse health outcomes over time.

Speaker 1: 29:12

Yeah, the metabolism at its core, right? I mean it'd be interesting to see what you guys think about this. But we talk about the metabolism as an energy system. To me it's a stress management system. It's a stress sensing and responding system and it's responding, you know. It's sensing and responding not just to calories but all the stress out there. So, in a sense, think of it as a stress barometer, right, and as a stress barometer.

Speaker 1: 29:36

If we put too much stress pressure on that barometer, we are going to disrupt our system and that HPA axis and all the downstream things are going to begin to be a problem. I mean, the hypothalamus is the command and control center of the metabolism. Its primary job is to bring us back to homeostasis. Homeostasis from what Stress? And when we look at it that way now, we start thinking much differently about calorie management and all that kind of stuff. It's really about stress management and sleep is huge and rest and recovery and all that kind of stuff. It's really about stress management and sleep is huge and rest and recovery and all the things a lot of us love. We love the training hard, but we also do lots and lots of recovery stuff. I just hung out with these guys the other day in the sauna cold plunge, contrast hydrotherapy. Part of that is our need to recover and our sort of understanding that we need to recover.

Speaker 3: 30:27

You got the best sauna in town, by the way.

Speaker 1: 30:29

That's right, you guys come visit the JT, the sauna in Asheville.

Speaker 2: 30:33

I think I'll just jump in on the contrast thing, because I think it's like the frog in the water when you turn up the heat gradually, that doesn't jump out, but when you jump in the boiling water, it jumps out right away. You jump in in the boiling water, it jumps out right away, you know. I think it applies to sleep, it applies to energy level, uh, to fatigue, right to all these things that it creeps up on us and we just acclimate, you know that homeostasis like, and so if, if you have I mean, I, I've, luckily, I've been fortunate, fortunate to be a really good sleeper until my step was born 15 months ago but if you, if you've not slept well, right, if you've not eaten well, you know, and you're used to low energy, you're used to kind of a baseline level of fatigue. You know it really takes a lot to you know, many, many nights of really, really good sleep to say, wow, I didn't know what I was missing, you know, or or eating in a different way, or or not being in pain.

Speaker 2: 31:35

Some people, you know, wake up every, every day, you know, in in pain, and it might be a low level that they've just acclimated to and they, and they don't even say they're in pain anymore, right Cause it's not spiking, right? Or or they're taking ibuprofen or something stronger every, every day, um, and and so.

Speaker 2: 31:53

I think we we easily acclimate to something and that becomes our homeostatic point. Um so it takes a lot sometimes to jolt us out of it.

Speaker 1: 32:02

Yeah, and we don't necessarily get fed back to us when we're talking about this, this idea of structure and flexibility, about what's our healthiest thing that we can do. It usually revolves around diet and exercise. Rarely are we talking about the idea of rest, recovery, restoration, when it's really interesting that you're three guys who eat, live and breathe this stuff, that we're centering on this, that you're three guys who eat, live and breathe this stuff, that we're centering on this, because I would argue and I would say it is the most important thing, especially in the world that we currently live in. And I wonder if you both feel the same way. I can definitively say, at least my opinion is rest, recovery, relaxation is the most important thing.

Speaker 1: 32:42

Most people are not thinking that way, they're just thinking diet and exercise important thing. Most people are not thinking that way, they're just thinking diet and exercise, which for some people is an extra added psychological burden. You know, I have to get my workout in, I have to do all of the things, I got to eat a particular thing. If I don't do it right, that's a stress in a sense. And so there is this component where we have to kind of be aware that what is going on with our stress burden and our stress load and how much pressure we're putting on this stress barometer and whether or not we're going to be able to achieve the things we're trying to achieve. Diet and exercise cannot do it all, in my opinion, unless you have this rest, recovery, relaxation, restoration thing nailed, and I don't think most people do.

Speaker 3: 33:24

I'd agree with that 100 hundred percent. I love your analogy, michael, of the frog in the boiling water, because I think in the same way. Interestingly, so that you know the scientific, what we call that load that the hypothalamus takes on every day, is our allostatic load right, the amount of stress that's coming in? And I usually talk to folks about two different, at least two different types of stressors. You can probably, you know, stratify these out, but you know there's the major stressors loss of a parent, loss of a loved one. You know the big things, big move. You know it's actually a huge one up there divorce, those kinds of things. And then what's more common in our everyday life are the, the little stressors that hit us every day, whether someone's. You know the email you didn't want to read or the said, the rude thing someone does at the grocery store. You know something like that.

Speaker 3: 34:11

So, for me, my personal experience and what I like to counsel people on is, you know, really learning to return to get into that yen more. You know, I think that's a great, I like that better than parasympathetic, even though I say parasympathetic 15 times a day but you know, get returning to that yin state more and letting these emotions pass through you on a moment to moment basis, you know, is a first good place to start. And if that takes going to see a counselor, working with a mental health professional to really help you work through those things, you can have profound effects. I know for myself. I can watch my HRV go up, you know 10, 15 points when I'm meditating regularly, and I'll go through these times when I'm traveling, where I'm not doing it, and it just, you know, plummets.

Speaker 3: 34:55

It's probably other factors as well, but I know that for me is a big hack. But at the end of the day too, just to return to sleep, I mean you know, we know now there is good data out there in the public health world anyway that there is. I mean sleeping, averaging less than seven hours of sleep a night is an independent risk factor for early death. I mean, if you are not getting that, if you're really neglecting that, it's a huge deal. You know, if you I don't care if you're a Wall Street exec and you're you know you just can't find those times to get away during your day. But if you will just prioritize sleep and making being a master of that, it can, can really be a hack there.

Speaker 1: 35:31

Yeah, maybe it'll be helpful if we all go through. You know, just the three of us talk a little bit about a couple to do's with sleep Cause. For me, with my patients, clients, I always, you know, struggled with sleep for a long time until you, you know, getting them to sleep. And to me, one of the biggest ones I'll just throw out and I'd love to hear yours, is that, to me, getting people to wake up at the same time every single morning, regardless of what it is, whether it's Monday, you know, whether it's the week or weekend. One of the reasons why is because this whole circadian physiology sets us up for sleep and most people are not doing that. They wake up at different times.

Speaker 1: 36:07

So, from my perspective, getting up, and perhaps getting up a little earlier than what you're used to, especially if you have insomnia in the beginning, if you get up at 6 am and you do that every day, weekday or weekend, this is going to set you up for better sleep later in my mind, and I'd love to hear your tips on this as well. Better sleep later in my mind, and I'd love to hear your tips on this as well. And ideally, you also get out and do a walk or something and get your eyes exposed to bright light, that kind of thing. But I'm curious what you guys find is most helpful to get people who can't sleep to sleep. Barring things like sleep apnea and stuff like that, what is it that will get that going for them?

Speaker 2: 36:46

Yeah, it's a great question. I think a book that I would reference is Matthew Walker's why we Sleep. He's had some great podcasts talking about that book and especially for people that have insomnia or just difficulty sleeping, building up that sleep pressure. And that's that's where I think I think the thing that, uh, you know, people always say it's hard to wake up early.

Speaker 2: 37:13

I think the thing that's difficult is to go to sleep early enough that you are able to wake up refreshed early. Um, I'm more of a night owl and that that's a challenge for me and I don't have insomnia and I sleep really well. But I think it might have been in his book or another book about sleep. But if you normally go to bed at 10 pm, let's say, and you're trying to get eight hours right, so you go to bed at 10 pm and you wake up at six, for example, and then you're out a little bit late and you go to bed at like 1130.

Speaker 2: 37:47

Right, and then you sleep, you know, until 730. That's, you still got the same number of hours, right, but you missed. Because if you're, if you're really pretty routine about going to sleep at 10 pm, your body starts kind of going into you uh, nighttime mode.

Speaker 2: 41:33

You know around nine or so, but you didn't allow it to do that, right, and so a lot when I one of the reasons I wear a garment and and probably the, the aura rings even better for this.

Speaker 2: 41:44

But sleep, uh, you know the sleep stages and things, and I look at my heart rate during sleep and things like that, and it takes a while, especially if you're off that schedule, to see the heart rate drop into that rest, restful mode, right, and so you know we can look at the number of hours and you know Fitbit and and, and you know whoop and others use different metrics for that sleep score. But I think you know, again, when I talk about nourishing food, like restorative sleep, right, like that's what we're looking for, is what helps us recover, right, not just the number of hours in bed, or you know the sleep score that our wearable gives us, but like do we really feel restored? And so the consistency is is really important, not just getting up at the same time that helps us go to bed at the same time, which I think is the more critical factor.

Speaker 3: 42:42

Yeah, I like that. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to caveat off that and say that to kind of use your idea that what I watch with myself and what is true in the, you know, in the scientific literature around sleep, is you get that first half of the night like you're talking about. So we'll get most of our physiologically restorative sleep right, and it tends to be after midnight that we really drop into REM, which, interestingly, if you look at the study, sleep deprivation from REM is actually more dangerous than physiologically restorative sleep. So both are very important. Matthew Wolcott talks about that in his book and I love that.

Speaker 3: 43:14

The same schedule every day I'm going to throw out some really low hanging fruit, simply because it changed my life when I stopped drinking.

Speaker 1: 43:22

I was going to say we're going to have to say something about alcohol.

Speaker 3: 43:25

That's the lowest hanging fruit, because I mean even you know just destroys your sleep it destroys it.

Speaker 3: 43:39

You know, more so than you can have a shot of espresso after dinner, and you're probably going to sleep better than if you have a couple of martinis or a couple of brews or something. So you know, we live in a society where it is so normalized and I firmly believe there's a time and a place for everything, and alcohol is definitely appropriate in a lot of different settings. But I think that if you got someone who's using daily, even if they're, and especially with age you guys know this, I mean personally, right, We've all had this experience. I can get away with it in my twenties and even during my thirties, but, man, you get in the forties, and I mean one beer you know can can completely disrupt your sleep in a night, so um yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:11

I'm glad you brought that up, jeff. I think it's absolutely critical and a lot of people, I think, think, right, they think they drink and they go. Well, that puts me to sleep. You're not getting quality sleep at all, so it's not necessarily that you're waking up. You're like, well, hey, I drink and I actually sleep through the night. You're not getting quality sleep at all, you're not getting restorative sleep at all, and so this is a huge one from my perspective.

Speaker 1: 44:34

Let's talk about for people and other things that if people can't sleep, since we're on this restorative thing, then we'll get into some of the performance stuff. But what else would you guys put in there? I'll just throw a few out and see what sort of. We talked about contrast, talked about sleep. There's naps, there's things like yoga, nidra, right, non-sleep, deep rest, that kind of stuff. There's things like breath work. There's things like walking out in nature, slow walks, and that kind of stuff. There's things like grounding. We hear all kinds of things that we can do that are restorative Time with pets, as long as they're not shitting all over the floor, and that kind of stuff. You know, loved ones, sex, physical affection there's lots of things that we can do for restoration meditation. What are? You know, a few of your favorites that you think have the biggest bang for the buck besides sleep?

Speaker 2: 45:26

Well, I'll jump in real quick. Just last week I was at the Chinese Medicine Clinic and it's been a stressful couple of weeks for me and so she was taking my pulses, as they do. They take your pulses and tell everything about you like fortune tellers, but it's accurate, accurate. And uh, she said there's a lot of vibration in your, your pulse. Do this real quick, take a take a big, big inhale and then and then exhale. And then she said do that, do that again, but through your open mouth, and then one more time, and she felt my pulse and she was like three breaths right, she felt my pulse. She said now you're back to normal, yeah, so I think.

Speaker 2: 46:10

By the way, there's good data on this too. Yeah, I mean, but but it doesn't take. You know the, the Wim Hof. You know 10 minutes, or or, or. You know it doesn't have to take that long. I mean even just pausing. You know closing your eyes for one minute. You know, before we sit down to a podcast, before you sit down to to, to write that email, to reply to that email that you don't want to do like I like to you know, uh, think of uh tony robbins was the one that popularized it, anyway, I think but state story strategy, right, and we often dive into.

Speaker 2: 46:44

You know, whatever we're doing, whether it's work or fitness or relationships or whatever, you know what is the strategy for this and you know whether you go through that that whole uh you know process, um, checking in and what's your state, and if you're going in with a nervous energy, you know no wonder it turns out. You know not the way you want it. But if you ground yourself and center yourself, and so I, I think that's from a biggest bang for the buck. I think that it doesn't have to take more than like 60 seconds super easy, just super easy, to do.

Speaker 2: 47:15

You know you don't need to walk for 30 minutes or you know whatever, or make sure you're sleeping, or cut out caffeine or whatever. I'm not saying you shouldn't do some of those things if you're overdoing it, but but it doesn't have to take a lot of time. Yeah, I.

Speaker 3: 47:28

I'm going to agree with that and throw one more out there. And there's another little side note on that and I'll throw the H word out. Huberman was a you know, a coauthor on the study came out last January. You guys probably saw it when they just looked at it was college age students Cause I think they could control that the best. But they just instituted five minutes of deep side breathing a day for 30 days.

Speaker 3: 47:48

Yeah so the HRV increased by like 20%, saw cortisol levels fall. They saw testosterone in males go up, like you said. Yeah, it can just be three breaths but even if you can just take five minutes and work on some box breathing four, seven, eight, deep side breathing, kind of like what you did I mean that's really all it takes, so that's a wonderful hack. The second thing I would say, to kind of go back to the stigma on alcohol, the other thing that I've noticed personally and we know again in the literature, is honestly moving your meal times up at night can have a huge effect on your rest. You know, going to bed you actually fall into more of that parasympathetic rest and digest state If it's been a couple of hours. You know usually advise two or three hours since your last meal. You rest better, the sleep is more restorative.

Speaker 1: 48:36

Yeah, and this is really interesting for you listeners. I mean, you're thinking about, like there's three guys who have been doing this work for a long time and look at some of the very simple, doable things that we're talking about here. By the way, for those who aren't following, the deep sigh breathing, this is just a longer exhale. When you have the longer exhale, you're putting yourself into that yin parasympathetic state, but I love the simple things. Right, it's like having dinner slightly earlier, right, spending time with this, you know, sort of deep breath stuff you don't have to put. You know, you don't have to be doing contrast hydrotherapy, which is really interesting. Right, you got three guys here that are into all the biohacking stuff and what you got from them is very simple, doable things. So let's, before we wrap this up, let's get into something for the athletes, if you don't mind, and this is the idea. I'll just start out with the question Do you guys eat carbohydrates and how important are they for you?

Speaker 2: 49:36

Because you know, this is the whole thing. Right, move on to performance. I want to, I want to just, uh, just wrap up. Tie a tie up in a bow.

Speaker 2: 49:40

Uh, what we're talking about for the, for the average or person just starting out? Yep, because I think, uh, what you, what you highlighted is, you know, we've been at it at this for a while, right, this is a lifestyle for us. This is something that, know, we've. We've been at it at this for a while, right, this is a lifestyle for us. This is something that that we, we do out of habit. We don't really have to think about it that much, right, but, um, when you're talking about someone that you know might be metabolically challenged, right, they, they're, you know, 40 or 50 pounds overweight, there, you know.

Speaker 2: 50:05

Or, um, you know, has an injury, right, it's, it's, um, you know, has an injury, right, it's, it's a we know. I mean, it's easier to maintain, whether it's our car or our body, right, then it is to repair a hundred percent. And so I think, um, you know, every diet out there, whether it's Atkins or zone or whatever, starts with a phase where you cut lots of things out. Right, you cut out the crap and then you build back in and whether we're talking about fitness or diet or sleep or whatever you kind of need and we were talking about contrast, you know of cold plunge and sauna and things like that right, you need that sort of jumpstart, I think, initially, and then you can maintain with very little, not very little work, right, but it's less effort to maintain, and so I don't know if we want to just talk about that briefly.

Speaker 1: 50:58

Yeah, I think I think what what you're alluding to and I would I would agree here is that it's one of these things where, okay, so every like, choose, choose your diet right. Like you know, this is the personal thing. Let's say, we gravitate to certain diets. The idea is that all of them do have what you're talking about in common, first of all, but then you go back to you, choose the system, and you know, actually, jeff and I would just talk about the first quote in my book, which is, if you're doing everything right, you're not getting results and you're not doing everything right. So the idea is you basically start with whatever program you want. Then you look at these different parameters that we talked about, right, like biofeedback, blood labs, body comp, you know moving in the right direction, and you tweak and you adjust, and I think that's what you're alluding to here.

Speaker 1: 51:41

You clear out everything and then you begin to tweak and adjust and there's a Bruce Lee quote that I love that you all on this podcast hear me talk about all the time, which is absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own, and I do think that's the process. You clear everything out with a particular diet, and then you essentially begin to say, okay, which aspects of this diet work for me? I'm going to absorb that. Which are not working for me, I'm going to throw those out, but I'm going to keep the things that I know also work for me. And I think this is the approach to start with the structure any structure and then become flexible. So I think that's where you start and I do think this dovetails right into the performance stuff as well. But I'd love to hear your thought.

Speaker 3: 52:24

Well, I was going to take your question and include it in this Are carbs good or bad? Do you eat carbs? I? I mean, I think, uh, you know, carbohydrates is such a loaded word.

Speaker 1: 52:34

Yeah, that's why I threw it out. I know, I know, I knew what you were doing.

Speaker 3: 52:36

You're efficient um you know, I I like to think a lot of times about substituting for carbohydrates for for plant food, you know, and thinking about that, thinking about that way instead, because I can't say, I can't tell you the last person I said you should probably totally eliminate vegetables. You know, it's just not. There's not good data. Now, again, I do. I work in this position where I have the benefit of looking at people's genetics and we can make more targeted recommendations about whether a high carbohydrate diet, something like a whole food, plant-based diet, is something they're going to burn well with versus. You know, hey, looks like you do really well with sat fat. You should probably include more animal products. So you know, and that's kind of the caveat there is.

Speaker 3: 53:17

Like you know, I work for this one company, but you can get these kind of genetic tests in a lot of different places now. So that might be one approach you start with to find out that. You know, that's what we call a precision medicine or individualized medicine, to find out what's best for you. But I think as a whole, my message is usually hey, don't eat lonely carbs. You know, we know that when you're eating lonely carbohydrates you're causing these fluctuations and insulin, um and and and blood glucose that are generally going to result in inflammation on one level or another. So combining with some sort of fat or protein is usually a great idea to slow the absorption of those carbohydrates you're having and make it more of a balanced kind of flat line.

Speaker 1: 53:58

Yeah, yeah, I have a similar approach. I essentially go look, you know, there's, there's carbohydrates, and, from my perspective, there's fruits, vegetables and starch, and you know. So fruits and vegetables, I think, are more of the nourishing types of things that we just got to have, and then there's the starch, which I think gets us into the performance aspect of things. You know, to me, starch is a performance food. I'd be interesting to see what you all think about that, and I would also. I would argue it is the most important performance food, and so, from my perspective, I oftentimes look at people who are athletes and who move a lot, and if you're not moving a lot, then I might say you know, look, stick with the fruits and vegetables, you might not require much starch. But for guys like you two uh, you know it's like I my bet is and I don't know that you're including starch in your diet and you're using it to fuel performance I do not hold back on the starches if I'm going to do a big workout or immediately after.

Speaker 3: 57:41

You know, and I'd love to hear Mike.

Speaker 2: 57:43

Yeah, well, I'll just go back to what you were talking about uh, high antioxidant and omega-3. Yeah, you know, I think, uh, that will be the foundation for me of. Are you getting that? And I think back to my grad school days where I took a whole class on free radicals, right, and I bet that was fun, and the free radicals or Ross radical, oxygen species, right, and what I, what the one? I mean it was a very, very technical course, but I think the the key takeaway is that, basically, these antioxidants that we talk about, it's a one-to-one ratio to basically encapsulate those and and your body of of free radicals, okay, and so, you know, when we were talking about stress earlier, there's, you know, the spectrum of distress and new stress that we you know.

Speaker 2: 58:32

Some stress is good and exercise is a stress.

Speaker 2: 58:35

Eating is a stress on our body from the, the digestion and absorption of metabolism standpoint, and if you're not eating all these kinds of things, even eating carbohydrates, right through the process of digestion, breaking it down, some free radicals are released through that biochemical reaction.

Speaker 2: 58:54

Also, through exercise, we're producingates, right, and so we need to make sure that our diet is high enough in antioxidants, right, that we're eliminating those, because that's bouncing, those are bouncing around in our body, causing inflammation and things like that, right, and so, yes, but the reason we'd say you need to earn your carbohydrates right by burning them is not just from a caloric standpoint, but it's because if you don't have the foundation of that antioxidant rich diet, acclimate to that, but those, uh, you know, swelling in the knees and these kinds of things that when someone reduces their carbohydrate intake, it's not necessarily the carbohydrates that are causing the you know, the swelling, but they may be causing some inflammation. That's causing the swelling, right, and so, yeah, I'm I mean, I'm a big big fan of carbohydrates. The more complex, the the better. You know, avoiding sugars, definitely. I mean that that that uh catalyzes a biochemical reaction, that that leads to lots of free radical production, um, but that's the technical side of things that it is important to to really have a.

Speaker 3: 1:00:19

And that's, that's fruits, and vegetables.

Speaker 2: 1:00:20

I mean, what are antioxidants? You know?

Speaker 3: 1:00:22

they're in some other things, but it's.

Speaker 2: 1:00:24

it's really emphasizing that and you know, when you look at what you eat in a day, if it's not very colorful, add some color to it. It would be the tactical.

Speaker 1: 1:00:32

And you know, the reason I bring up carbohydrates and starch is because of the question that I think people need to understand, and starch is because of the question that I think people need to understand. The whole point of bringing it up is to essentially say look, if you're just someone who's sedentary and you're not doing much and you're eating the standard American diet that is rich in starch and fat which is, as an aside, I think, a lot of these diets if you look at them, they take away one of these major macronutrients. So it's either very high starch, carbohydrate, low fat, which is probably going to do some good because you're eliminating all those carbons that are coming through the Krebs cycle, right, versus getting rid of all the fat versus starch, or all the starch versus fat. But what I would love for people to understand is that if you're a sedentary person, you probably don't necessarily need to be consuming all this fat and starch and so. But when you start to exercise and you start getting more fit now we're talking in the athletic realm. I think this is where people run into problems Now, all of a sudden, you're using this starch differently than you would have when you're not doing exercise, and so, from a performance enhancing aspect, I think starch has become important.

Speaker 1: 1:01:44

I do think people get confused on this. You were talking we started this out, michael, with you saying all the mixed information out there, right? And I think this is what people get confused with. If you're looking for fat loss and that's what you're after, right? That's a little bit different than if you're looking for performance enhancement and that's what you're after, right? That's a little bit different than if you're looking for performance enhancement and that's what you're after.

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

And I think even athletes get this mixed up all the time. I can't tell you how many times athletes come to me and they're not performing well and it's because they're doing keto-based diets and things like that. And I'm like you know, yes, that can be useful for fat loss. It's very rarely useful. We do have some weird studies on, a few studies on cyclists showing it had an effect, but most of the studies show that a low carbohydrate diet is not going to be doing you much help in performance enhancement. So that's why I bring that up, because I think it's a confusing thing for people, and I just wanted to see if you all are in agreement with that or you have differences in that, because I think it's something we should cover before we end.

Speaker 3: 1:02:42

Well, I think I love that you brought this up and this should be bookmarked.

Speaker 1: 1:02:46

next, yeah, another podcast.

Speaker 3: 1:02:48

Because I know if you guys are familiar with this optimal energy availability, low energy availability state. So it's gotten a lot of headlines recently in the performance world, mainly because the International Olympic Committee just published a 107-page article, I think it was, about LEA low energy availability, mainly affecting female athletes.

Speaker 3: 1:03:06

And unfortunately that's part of our culture that we live in. But even these Olympic level athletes mainly we're going to see in gymnasts and weight-based sports that are really dependent on getting under a certain weight at a certain point. But interestingly I see it with my own patients who are higher level athletes in the form where they'll come in and they are doing, they're nailing it, man. You know they're sleeping well, they're hitting their macros and they're exercising. Who knows, maybe they're, you know, running 80 miles a week and hitting gym three days a week. Running 80 miles a week and hitting gym three days a week. But their parameters, their biomarkers are off and it is primarily a problem of undernourishment, usually the carbohydrates.

Speaker 3: 1:03:46

So that the big study that I saw was where they took two groups. They kept their protein intake the same these were high level CrossFit type athletes and two weeks they ate optimal energy availability. They dropped it in the second group after two weeks what happened was the folks the, the females in the lower energy availability. Both groups lost some weight during that time, but it was a net muscle gain and the optimal energy availability group of one pound. The other group lost more weight. They lost three pounds, but it was split between fat and muscle. Yeah, and they had their blood and everything went out of whack this is the exact study I was thinking of.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

Actually, yeah, yeah, 100 so they had.

Speaker 3: 1:04:25

You know, their a1c started trending up because they're more in this cortisol dominant state, under nourishment, overstressed, all the time, and that drives up blood glucose. They saw these adverse things happening actually from undernourishing and they did not change the protein intake. In the two groups it was mainly carbohydrates that cut out.

Speaker 1: 1:04:42

And with you, women in particular. As you know, that's my area of expertise with women. You know, this is going to be even more of an issue depending on where you are in your menstrual cycle. You know, as you, as you move into the luteal phase, this is going to be even more of you know an issue because of what progesterone does to insulin kinetics. So, yeah, that's one of the things that I wanted to just get from you two, because I do think this is a very confusing area for people, and people are getting the two things mixed up what you're doing for your health and fat loss versus what you're doing for your performance.

Speaker 2: 1:05:15

Yeah, I'll just say one more thing about that. I think we say sometimes a calorie is a calorie, right, and uh, I hope that's been debunked enough that that that's, that's a myth that we're not propagating. But, um, you know, carbohydrate, fat and protein definitely have. I mean, we could, we could just test it right now but they definitely have different. Uh, satiating effects, right, and if you ate, you know, 200 calories of pasta, right, versus 200 calories of almond versus 200 calories of chicken, right, you're going to, you're going to be hungry a lot sooner with just the pasta, right? And? And so, when I was working with clients more on nutrition, a decade ago.

Speaker 2: 1:06:03

I always said two plus one was my rule, and so it was. The one was a fruit or vegetable, and and so, in every, every time you sit down to eat something, include either carbohydrate and protein, carbohydrate and fat, or fat and protein, and you should be able to like, especially when you're starting out, look at it on your plate and point to it. That's a carbohydrate, that's a fat, yeah, right, and sometimes, and then and then, add a fruit or vegetable, because the fruit or vegetable adds fiber, which slows the digestion and absorption, um, even more, and so you don't get the the glucose spike. But I think sometimes people want to reduce calories, right, and so they go to, you know, go out to dinner and they get the bread basket and they're like, oh, I'll pass on the butter, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:06:51

And they end up eating the whole bread basket because it just, you know, it's so easy to eat a delicious bread without anything on. Or or like, I'll skip the Alfredo sauce, I'll cut the calories and I'll just have the sauce that doesn't have any fat. And then you go home and you're hungry right away because you're just eating those carbohydrates. So I think the hormonal effect of food is also an important factor.

Speaker 1: 1:07:18

Yeah, 100%. So let me just wrap us up here, kind of walk us through kind of what we covered and then let Jeff and Michael sort of add anything they want. So we started this discussion talking about how confusing it is, and we hope we didn't add to that and hopefully simplified it for you. But the idea is we started kind of with this idea of structured flexibility and we kind of with this idea of structured flexibility and we kind of converged on a structure that I think we all, like you know, sort of this natural foods, you know, making sure that we move, making sure we lift Right, and we kind of looked at this through the anthropological lens as well. And then we talked about the flexibility part which we adjusted a lot here, which is, you know, we went into rest and recovery and how you need to optimize for that. We went into the idea of looking at your biofeedback, looking at your body composition, looking at your blood labs. Jeff talked a lot about the genetic testing which he's an expert in. So these are the ways that we sort of get into this flexibility aspect of things, spent a lot of time talking about rest and recovery and sleep and then here at the end, we went right into talking about performance and some of this confusion around fueling for performance versus health and fat loss effects, and that we need to kind of get that right.

Speaker 1: 1:08:36

And so to me, where I would leave this, that I would essentially say the structure is something that we all sort of can converge on. It's slightly different if you're a health and fat loss person, as we talked about, versus a performance person, but generally natural foods. And if you're the health and fitness person, you're essentially, you know reducing, you know the junk foods and moving and lifting, but if you're a performance person, you need to make sure you're not getting into this low energy availability and that is a difference. Both groups. You really need to optimize recovery and pay close attention to that, and we covered, you know, some of that for you. So I think that's where we are and I hope that's simplified things, and I just want to get final thoughts and I'll let you go first, jeff, in terms of what do you feel like we missed out on, what do you feel like you want to make sure people emphasize, or any other thoughts that you have.

Speaker 3: 1:09:29

Well, I can, I can already predict two podcasts ahead. So we definitely need to talk about the performance and energy availability, and energy availability. And then I would love just because I know you guys are both have been in this field long enough to have and Michael's research lab experience and Jay, just your human experience I'd love to have an episode about supplements.

Speaker 3: 1:09:51

Yeah 100%, because there's a lot of confusion out there around that. Specifically, there's some great ones for antioxidation. I think we could talk about it at some point. But yeah, yeah, man, I I can't add much to what you just summed up.

Speaker 3: 1:10:02

I think every day I try to um, you know, live wilder. It's kind of the motto with the, with the business I work with, and that just refers to getting back to our, the way our genes are made. Um, so some days I, you know, I find myself frustrated. At noon I'm like god, what I didn't work out this morning because I do live that lifestyle and it just takes me getting on the floor and moving like an animal for a little bit or doing some mobility for 15 minutes and returning to my body. So for me, I think that's the only thing I'd add is you know if you are not someone, if you're living outside of your body all day long, every day, if you're living outside of your body all day long, every day, if you're not checking in, as Michael referenced, around meals and how you actually feel, really taking a moment to be mindful and checking with how you feel. You need to start doing that, because if you're not doing that, you're not going to know what progress is working and what's not. So yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 1:10:55

Yeah, and real quick. Just tell everyone where to find you before we end.

Speaker 3: 1:11:05

Like where can people find you? Are you spending time on online your business websites, anything like that? Yeah, yeah, so I work with the company called wild health and you can find us online, for sure. We do precision medicine. Um, instagram, graham jeffrey 75 is my handle there, so, um, yeah, that's really where I'm probably most active, there, for sure, cool.

Speaker 1: 1:11:21

How about you, Michael?

Speaker 2: 1:11:23

Yeah, I think the thing that I'd really emphasize is that what got you to where you are right now might not serve you going forward.

Speaker 2: 1:11:31

Yeah, that's a great point. And so for people that are starting out, I'll just reiterate find what's sustainable for you. And then, for those that have been at it for a while, figuring out what's holding you back from getting to where you want to be, at the next level, whatever that looks like, whether it's performance or longevity and that could be a whole other podcast that's holding you back, but it might not be more strength, it might not be more endurance, maybe it's more mobility, um, you know, maybe it's more recovery, you know, and, and that's the, the value of of working with, with a company like yours, or, you know, finding a coach or or finding, you know, an expert that can pinpoint that. You know, the blind spot that you're not seeing. And the final F, I think, is fun, you know, and and that's that's, that's the sustainability piece, and we kind of alluded to that earlier. But, you know, if you're not enjoying the process, if you're not enjoying the journey, it's the destination you go worth to yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:12:39

So, yeah, yeah. And where can people find you, michael?

Speaker 2: 1:12:43

Yeah, I'm not super active on social media right now. Michaeldonovancoachingcom is my coaching website, and that's probably the best place to find me.

Speaker 1: 1:12:55

Cool. So thanks so much to everybody for hanging out. You're going to be seeing, hopefully, more of the three of us, because I want to do more of these with these two guys. I just think they're super smart. They have a slightly different perspective than my own and we can just all learn a ton. So thank you both for being here and I will see you all at the next show.