Rewiring Mindset and Behavior: The Art of Transformative Coaching with Kasey Jo, Orvidas- Ep. 258

Speaker 1: 1:25

What's going on everybody Dr JT to here, host of the Next Level Human Podcast, and I have someone I've been wanting on the show here for a while, casey Joe Orvitas, who's got a PhD in psychology, and, as you all know, I have a lot to say on the coaching profession and a lot of us professionals. One of the things I'm gonna tee you up here, casey Joe, and Casey Joe and I have known each other for a while online. We got to meet in person at a conference last year and she has become, I think, a leading resource for a lot of us in this profession to get us up to speed on what we actually need to be doing around mindset. But I'm gonna tee this up for you, casey Joe, and just say something that may get me in trouble with a lot of the listeners because, as you know, a lot of people on this podcast are professionals. I got a ton of them here.

Speaker 1: 2:17

My contention is that, while I love the coaching profession and I think we need more coaches, not less, I don't think coaches are very well trained, and I know I'll get in trouble for that, but that's sort of what I have seen, and so that is why I want you on here, and I also know you have a coaching training that you do to train coaches and professionals to be better coaches, which we'll talk about at the end of this, but I want to get your take on that, just to start out. Do you think I'm right about this, wrong about this, like, and if so, what do you think goes wrong in the coaching world? Let's just get into this and talk about what's right or wrong about the industry.

Speaker 2: 3:03

Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely going to side with you on this one to a pretty large extent, and it's not necessarily that I'll say this. It's not necessarily that coaches are missing nutrition and exercise education. I think a lot of coaches, most coaches, have a pretty good, solid foundation when it comes to nutrition and exercise and obviously there is varying degrees of levels that you can reach when it comes to your understanding of the human body in whatever way that we're talking about and yes, there are still some coaches who are probably better equipped to help people than others. When we're talking about, kind of, I guess we'll say those like the baseline health and fitness coach things, right, but at that point, no matter where you're at, as far as your level of education, your experience, your training, when it comes to nutrition and exercise, you could be the smartest, the best coach when it comes to those things.

Speaker 2: 4:00

If you don't have a foundation of understanding how to change human behavior and how to work and communicate with humans, a lot of what you're doing, you know those advanced certifications, specializations, things like that are going to fall flat and I'm sure a lot of coaches listening to me are like, yeah, I know so much, but I barely ever even get to implement some of it, because my coaches or my clients rather don't stick to the plan, they don't follow through with it, what they say they're going to do, they don't listen to me, etc. Etc. And so on right. So that can be really frustrating too for the the expert coach when it comes to nutrition and fitness, because they don't actually even feel like they get to use their expertise to the ability that they want to. So what's really missing here is an understanding of the science and I say science very, very clearly here the science of mindset and behavior change.

Speaker 2: 4:53

There's a lot of mindset coaches out there. You know the whole woo, woo, believe in yourself manifestation crowd, which love those, love that crowd. Also a member of that crowd. But the problem is so many coaches place way too much emphasis in that they become just the cheerleader coaches or they think that they're helping clients work through behavior changes and mindset blocks, when the reality is they may actually be pushing those clients in the other direction. So my biggest thing is to really start to empower coaches to realize that there aren't really any uncoachable, quote-unquote clients out there. There is just poor coaching practices and that's like. That's kind of like a hard pill to swallow, but, jade, at least you and I are maybe kind of on the same page with that yeah, hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 5:39

And for you, for those of you listening to this, by the way, don't don't turn off this podcast if you're not a coach, because actually, for those of you who are looking for help, you're gonna get a backdoor sort of look into what is gonna make it the biggest difference for you. So let's, let's get into this case just to walk us through the basic sort of ways that people change, that the, the majority of coaches are missing, like what's the? And I know we, I know this is a whole, we could write three books on this but in your opinion, what's sort of the base that people need to know, the base of the pyramid the coaches need to know about the basics of how humans change?

Speaker 2: 6:24

yeah, yeah, big question for sure, and we could go a few different directions with this, but I do think like, foundationally, what we need to understand is how humans are making decisions, how they're seeing the world, how they're making sense of things, how they're assigning meaning to certain things, because all of that is going to influence how you should be coaching that person and if you can understand sort of their, their worldview, you can be a much better coach for them. And what I'm kind of talking about here, all of this can be nicely neatly packaged up into the world of mindset, and your mindset, at the end of the day, is the lens that you're taking to see the world through and assign meaning to things, make sense of things, etc. We can then break that down into two separate mindsets growth versus fixed mindset, which I'm sure everyone has heard, at least to some degree. Who is listening? And as a coach, it should be your goal to can constantly work your clients towards more of a growth mindset.

Speaker 2: 7:25

So what's a bummer is that a lot of coaches get clients who they realize have a fixed mindset. You know these clients are saying no, this never works for me, I can't do it this way, this is not possible for me, I'm not capable, I'm not worthy, I'm not enough, etc. All fixed mindset type of statements. And then the coach goes well, what am I supposed to do with this? My hands are tied. If that's what you think, if you're not motivated, if you don't want to be here, you're the one who's paying me. What am I supposed to do?

Speaker 2: 7:51

And the reality is again if you can understand and know how to leverage the science of mindset and behavior change and that can be through honestly, down to a specific as certain questions that you're asking this client to help guide them towards coming up with solutions on their own, or doing less focus on their weaknesses and things that they need to fix and starting to really really pay attention to where their strengths are and how you can help them leverage those things. And there's a whole host of things that you can do, as the coach wants you have an understanding of this type of science, and I say science, but at the same time, too, I want everyone listening to understand that there's really easy to implement things here and and strategies and tools. It's not. You don't need to go sit down and read a textbook, or you don't need a PhD like me in order to be doing this stuff.

Speaker 1: 8:37

So I hope that answers your question, but it's just kind of like that really is the foundation, yeah and let me throw a hypothesis at you, or just a statement, to see what you think about this. So when I oftentimes think about this, I see it as there's habits and behaviors, right, and we could tell people hey, eat this way, exercise this way, do these behaviors. And then they're sort of identity and beliefs. And from my perspective and this is what I want to know from you, the expert from my perspective I go well, identity and beliefs isn't that what habits and behaviors flow out of, and isn't that where we can make the difference of fixed mindset versus growth mindset?

Speaker 1: 9:17

So one thing that I think I'm hearing and I want you to correct me on this is that we can certainly go, hey, do these habits, do these behaviors, but if someone has this fixed mindset, this identity, that I am not this, I am this, I can't do that, I can only do this then then we're talking about sort of these identities and beliefs, and then for me, behind that is a set of stories and narratives that this person essentially has, whether consciously or unconsciously, that they are playing on repeat, and so I'm wondering what you think of that and how that fits into moving someone into a fixed you know, from a fixed mindset to this growth based mindset. How does that fit in? Is that accurate? Is it not accurate? How do we correct that? I'm just curious your thoughts on that.

Speaker 2: 10:09

I love that. This is just how your brain works. So, with that said, it is kind of like a chicken or the egg phenomenon, a little bit right. So is it the identity that's creating the mindset or is it the mindset that's creating the identity? And I think, truthfully, they just play together a lot and they bounce off of each other and it can go either direction. Again, I guess at the end of self resistance at the top of my head by that it was a great insight, a great farm, water and vegetable. So to adjust that type of mindset into a specific way.

Speaker 2: 10:48

But after that time again, what among those two ideas, growing my Zac or or aseguring my? We see this relationship for sure, but then it becomes what's going on in between that relationship. So for my nerds out there, we're looking at like mediators or moderators, right, like what's in between. What are these variables that maybe are essentially your mindset is then hitting on these other variables, and those other variables are what actually causes you to exercise more frequently. So in this research that I did, we found that identity was one of those variables, so essentially having a growth mindset about how fit you are capable of becoming If you have a stronger, one of those stronger growth mindset, you are more likely to have a stronger identity around fitness and health behaviors and that is what is actually leading you to exercise more frequently.

Speaker 2: 11:50

So we see this mindset to exercise connection, but the reality is it's through this identity piece.

Speaker 2: 11:58

So it is a really big thing and that's not to say I can't tell you from this research we didn't essentially look at it going the other direction, right.

Speaker 2: 12:06

So if your identity is actually creating that mindset but I think we can all understand how that would be the case but for coaches who are listening, for those of you who are listening, you're just wanting to work on your own health and fitness and be more consistent With that. If you can start to develop more of a growth mindset around your fitness behaviors, that's going to lead you to start feeling like I am a fitness person, you know I am a person who exercises and once you start feeling that way, as we can all understand, it's so much easier to be consistent with actually getting to the gym and actually going and exercising consistently. So there is that connection. We know for sure, Of course. Then it becomes well what else goes into your identity and how else is your identity affected by things. And there's up, I mean again, three different books. We could write on this right, but that we know for sure, and that is some of the work that I did myself.

Speaker 1: 15:37

Yeah, I love this idea because the way I think about it is, if we look at identity sort of in the middle, and then we look at what we're doing, I mean, obviously the brain is watching us all the time. So this idea of the as if principle that you do with thing and the brain becomes more convinced you are the thing, but then on the other side of that there's a story about who you already are. So I love the way you're framing this, where you're essentially saying, yes, identity is playing a role, if I'm hearing you correctly, but there are multiple ways and multiple environmental triggers and stories and unconscious stuff that are feeding in to identity. And we don't necessarily know all those things yet, but we know a few based on some of the research that you're talking about. So how do we then begin to change people?

Speaker 1: 16:20

If they have sort of a stuck mindset? What are the things, the tools that we can use for ourselves and coaches can use to begin to? You know, it sounds like what you're saying. If someone says I am not this, what then can we begin to do to drop the breadcrumbs or help them see themselves differently? I'm curious, what evidence based things do we have? Or what practical based things clinically have you seen that help begin to move that needle?

Speaker 2: 16:46

Yeah, and that is like the golden question, right? So how do we take someone who has a fixed mindset about this stuff and translate it into growth mindset so that we can now change their identity, make them more self efficacious and then therefore exercise more frequently? Like that, that's the golden equation, right? And the first answer that I have is a very unsexy answer, and it really is becoming more aware of where your fixed mindset is showing up. You truly cannot expect to change anything in your life without understanding where your baseline is. You can't improve something that you don't know what it is. You need improving.

Speaker 2: 17:25

So, spending some time to really just be the researcher on your own life, on your clients lives, and start to pick out where is this fixed mindset really showing up. And many of you may be listening like, okay, great, but what does that even look like, sound like, what is it I'm looking for? And we mentioned a couple of things here. Like you can pay attention to language If you find yourself or your clients saying I'm just not the type of person to track macros, or that's like that's a very cool thing, that's like that's a very clear indicator, right, or something like I don't know, I could try that, but it's just never worked for me in the past. Or I just don't think like I'm going to be capable of doing that. Like sounds great in theory, but so those are all very like alarm bells should be going off like fixed mindset, fixed mindset, fixed mindset. But there's some others and, honestly, most others are relatively sneaky and it does require you to pay pretty close attention. So a few that I like to point out for people who are like all right, I'm ready to do this, I'm ready to pay attention to where my fixed mindset is.

Speaker 2: 18:26

Look for how you respond, or maybe your clients respond to feedback, setbacks and success. So feedback, just like what you're all thinking. Right, you're getting feedback from someone else a coach, your boss, your friend, your mom, whatever how do you respond to feedback? Or if you're paying attention to how your clients respond to feedback when you give them feedback, this is a really great way to, like you know, put the feedback out there and pay attention to what you get back. So someone with a fixed mindset is going to see feedback as either something they need to get defensive about because it feels like a personal attack, because if they have a fixed mindset, they think this is who I am. So if you're giving me feedback on that being incorrect now, I'm personally attacked. So they can get defensive, maybe a little bit dismissive. They try to justify why they did the things that they did and how it might be still correct in some way and just really not be fully accepting. And they may not do that like very directly. Some people definitely will. Other people may say cool thanks, and then the back of their head are like she's wrong. So someone with a growth mindset on the flip side of the coin would be honestly eager to get that feedback. And I'm actually thinking about myself. I'm going through like a three part training series right now for coaches that I'm teaching and I have two of my staff members that come to these Zoom calls, make sure everything goes smoothly, kick out any LAMOs, that sort of thing. And after the fact I always go okay, feedback immediately what did you think? How did it feel? How did it feel for you guys on your end Like really praising the feedback, because I know that's an opportunity for me to improve, that I can use that data as a way to get better for the next call, for the future presentations, etc. So that is a very much so a growth mindset way of looking at things.

Speaker 2: 20:22

So the next one is setbacks. Something happens, your client goes off the rail over the weekends, or maybe this is something that you did, that sort of thing. How do you respond to those situations where you quote, unquote, fall off the wagon type of situation? Right, you have this little bit of a setback. Someone with a fixed mindset is going to see this as indicative of the fact that they aren't capable. That essentially like okay, I knew it, I knew it all along and now I have proof. Now I have proof that I'm not capable of doing this right. And every time there's a setback it just becomes like another mark against them in that way, whereas someone with a growth mindset would see a setback as like oh, that that didn't work so well, that's good to know.

Speaker 2: 24:34

On to the next thing you know. So essentially like piling up all of these different ways that did not work. That is actually very good information for me. So if you're a coach, you can kind of see when your clients have setbacks, pay attention to, to the language they used to describe the setback, describe themselves, what they're planning to do. Next is, if you have a client who comes back to you Just like okay, this is what happened this weekend, don't feel really good about it. Can we talk about what needs to be done to make sure this doesn't happen again or what? What other ways could I have? Could I do this differently next time? Versus a client who maybe says, see, coach, I told you like this is just, this is, I'm just not cut out for this stuff. And you can see very quickly where their mindset might be. You might be lying. And then the last one is success. And when I say success, I don't mean success of yourself, like celebrating yourself, which is a whole, nother topic, but success of other people, like how do you view the success of other people Specifically when they are successful and the things that you would like to be successful in?

Speaker 2: 25:34

So someone with a fixed mindset, let's say Susan, is scrolling Instagram. She's checking out all of her high school Old friends, what they're doing, what they're up to with their lives look like now. And she comes across this girl that she grew up with, who used to be very overweight, could never get the boys that sort of thing, now has this big, beautiful Family. She's lost a ton of weight, like she's thriving, right, and you, as Susan, are wanting to lose weight and wanting to start a family and all of these things.

Speaker 2: 26:02

If you have a fixed mindset, when you come across the scale from high school, susan is going to sit there and start to justify all the reasons why she was successful and why herself, as Susan, was not. So she might say, oh, you know, she always had like really wealthy families, so she probably got like hooked up this way or that way. She probably is a really expensive trainer I was like a in-home chef or something like that. Or you know, she was a really good athlete still. So maybe it really just like her was her genetics and that's why she's able to do this.

Speaker 2: 26:32

Or you just might feel Jealous, like how how can she have this thing that I want and I can't? And All of that is very indicative of having a fixed mindset and you may not realize those things, right. But if you find yourself justifying, you wouldn't automatically assume oh, that's my fixed mindset talking. But it is because you're thinking of all of these different Like ways and reasons that you can't have what she has and it's not possible for you because of these, these fixed traits, right, whereas someone with a growth mindset would be scrolling Instagram, come and cross this situation and thinking, oh my gosh, this is so cool.

Speaker 2: 27:11

She Literally made the transformation that I want to make, which means it's possible. I see this as inspiration. Maybe I should reconnect with her and see how she was able to do it and she'd give me some, some tips, some pointers. Maybe she has some ideas of what I could try. And Now it becomes this, this whole like hopeful feeling rather than Despair, and that is such a serious difference when you're actually trying to work towards that goal, between I don't, even I Can't have this. This person can have it, but I can't versus, oh, this person has it. That means I can too. Serious, serious difference, right, so paying attention to that. So okay, I'll leave you at that.

Speaker 1: 27:50

Yeah, really, really common ones it's juicy, and let me just reframe this and you correct me if I'm wrong on any of these Points because I think it's important. So it sounds like what you're saying is okay, jade, and everybody listening first self-awareness, first self-awareness, and then you're kind of breaking this down for us into two different, you know, sort of domains. One, a growth mindset, people who are looking to get better, looking for feedback, taking the lessons from setbacks, looking for ways to learn from other people's successes. That's one group, sort of we can call them the growth mindset group. The other group is having the exact different reaction to these feedback situations, these setback situations and these successes of other people, and so then the idea is that Now we have these two buckets right, so we know so to me, I'm assuming that in order to begin to get results for people, we have got to do step one move them from this fixed mindset to this growth mindset.

Speaker 1: 28:53

And so there has to be this jump, somehow. I also would suspect that when you're dealing with someone who's got a fixed mindset, as you alluded to, and you point this out directly to them, look at these negative stories that you're doing, look at this mindset that you have, they're immediately going to get Defensive. So am I right in saying that the first step to change is moving people to the growth mindset? And am I also right in saying that there is going to be some finessing around the resistance that comes up With a fixed mindset person? And if I am right about that, how do we, how do we maneuver that as coaches? How do we begin to finesse this to move people over? And then, of course, I want to go off into how do we get the growth mindset person as you start seeing results.

Speaker 2: 29:41

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 29:43

So definitely correct, and that a lot of self-awareness is is involved here, and the problem is most people just aren't even aware that this is what's holding them back.

Speaker 2: 29:50

This is why you have so many clients and people who are saying like I just don't understand why I can't stay consistent, like I know what I need to do but I just can't do it. We hear that all of the time and a lot of that is coming from this like buried, fixed mindset stuff that they don't realize they're. They're self sabotaging themselves and they don't even realize it right. So, and I would say first, first, first step it's kind of like the the primer step to the first step is helping clients recognize that fixed mindset and where that's coming up for them, without being direct about it, like you said, because for sure there will be pushback. It's especially if you're talking to someone who has a relatively fixed mindset about this thing. There's a good chance that if you come to them and say, hey, what I'm hearing is you have a fixed mindset, so we need to work on that, they're gonna be like excuse me, what, especially because they they aren't aware of it right now, just be.

Speaker 2: 30:39

It feels like a personal attack and that's absolutely the wrong way to go about it. So a lot of it needs to be quite Indirect, like in between the lines inside the questions that you're asking that aren't so direct. So some of those questions can be as Simple as can you tell me more about why you feel that way or why you think that way? You know, if someone comes to you and says I'm not that type of person or I don't feel like I'm capable, or it's never worked for me in the past, and help them give you more of that story behind it. And what can be really interesting is if you're asking questions like this and they start to like divulge the story and all of these Pieces of information, they may start to shift their own mindset in that moment and start to see and like, yeah, but that was something that happened to me a long time ago, so I probably really should have be attached to it anymore. I guess I can't really compare who I was when I was 15. Now that I'm 45, you know they'll start to say some of these things. And then you, as the coach, it's your responsibility to be on the lookout for those. Those are like pieces of change talk that we're hearing and Essentially attached to that, those pieces and continue to like snowball with those pieces. So once they've started to give you some of that, grab it, ask more about that. Oh well, tell me more about the differences between age 15 and 45 for you and really try to drive some of that stuff home.

Speaker 2: 32:01

So by the end of that conversation they're gonna leave and think, wow, I was thinking about this all wrong and that is the beginning of a mindset shift. Right now they're no longer going to be so much attached to that, especially if you can ever ever get someone to think about something differently than they were before. They're going to remember that. That's going to change, especially if it was maybe this long, like old Belief that's been there for a long time that they even realized was like doing something, and now they're going, whoa, light bulb moment. That's why I was thinking that way and that doesn't really even make sense there. That's going to change like you've shifted it. Yes, it could always like fall back that way again, but there's a good chance you've made a little bit more of a permanent shift just by doing that. So that's kind of how the the beginning stages, I would say, of that process would look, and it's obviously ongoing throughout the coaching relationship too.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Yeah, it sounds like. I love this because it sounds like to Opening this up is really about just getting people to think laterally, like I think you know what that is, but maybe some of you listeners don't really know what that is. Lateral thinking is just really about like, if I have, like, this cup, I'm drinking out of coffee, right, so I can use it for coffee. I can also put soil in it and use it to plant. You know, put a plant in it. I could turn it upside down and play it as a drum, like there's lots of different things I could do with this cup versus, you know, just drink something out of it. That's lateral thinking. It sounds like from my perspective, you're looking for them to getting them to start thinking laterally about their Historical narrative. In a sense, you know it's like, oh, can you see? It's almost like you see where you first made that choice, without telling them let's look and see where you first made that choice and then maybe they come to awareness and that's your first goal self Awareness.

Speaker 1: 33:44

How long is that typically that process typically take? I know it's gonna be individual, you know, for people. Some people get stuck there a long time. Some people can do it pretty quickly and I I do a few things that I you can shoot holes in. I'll just share with you because I think it's useful sometimes when I'm coaching. Sometimes Some of the things that I'll do with people, as I will say, as I've gotten to know them, that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 34:07

When did you make that choice? Can you remember when you made that choice? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? To sort of put up what I'm doing there is just dropping breadcrumbs in terms of Stories. You know that they you know I'm helping them to see that they're telling stories about life, that it's all a story, that they could potentially see it another way, and so I'm wondering does stuff like that work?

Speaker 1: 34:32

When you are going through this process with people, the other thing I'll oftentimes do is go oh yeah, that's interesting. I had a client like this, or I like to use myself a lot of time to Self-deprecate a little bit, to let them know that I'm human, that you know I have also been stuck for a long time, and then I saw that I was, you know, sort of telling myself the wrong story, and part of what I like to do is just because I like to go look, you're only human. All humans Get stuck. They get in these stuck mindsets. They get in these fixed mindsets and all humans have the opportunity to get out of these, and here are some examples and I also like to look for examples within their own life where they were able to get out of a fixed mindset in another domain. So I'm wondering Are any of these red flags for you where you're like, oh Jade, you should have done that a little differently, or are these Useful techniques? I'm just curious.

Speaker 2: 35:26

Yeah, no, really good All of them are very, very good kind of helping them get to to the core of it with that first one and then with this, with this last one, seeing other aspects of their life, or maybe they were a little bit more growth mindset Set-oriented and we're doing things in that way and then thinking, well, what's, what's the disconnect here? Right? This is actually a really important point to make too, because people Often speak about growth versus fixed mindset as if it is just this blanket thing that you have or you don't have across all Areas of your life. But we know for sure Inside the research that you can have a growth mindset in one area and be an entirely fixed mindset in another area. So this is where it can get really interesting.

Speaker 2: 36:08

When you're working with other people or thinking about yourself and you're like what the heck? I feel like I am really good about being able to see how I can improve and change and get better when it comes to my career and I'm excelling in that, but when it comes to my own health and fitness, I am not seeing the same thing like what is going on here a lot of times. There are differently held belief systems and so if you can also help clients start to recognize oh yeah, there is a disconnect here, but then what's going so well in your career, let's talk about your strengths and and how you see yourself over here, and then how now do we bring it over to this other side of health and fitness as well? So I really think that that can be a super powerful way for them to start to recognize, like, what the differences are. Because, again, so many people are just lost and wondering why am I like this? And if you can start to give them more understanding as to why they are like this, that is power, that is fuel for change.

Speaker 2: 39:55

It really is, and a big part of this, too that I wanted to bring up with the, with the lateral thinking, if we can help our clients think more flexible, flexibly, like a big problem is that so many people are just have such Cognitive rigidity is the biggest issue, right. So the more we can help them think more flexibility and introduce more like psychological flexibility in general and make them think about how this could look different ways. You know, like with the cup example, I can be like many different things. We want them to be thinking that way about their lives because there is, you know, the all or nothing thinking trap. People's really start to think very black or white, go to good or bad. So the more we can do that, the more growth, mindset, oriented Thoughts and actions are going to be like, easier to achieve too.

Speaker 1: 40:43

Yeah, I love that. I love that, casey Joe, because I look at it like as coaches, you know we should be, you know, getting people to think about possibility narratives, right, like I'm always looking at it, like they, I always feel like I'm dropping breadcrumbs. You know I'm dropping breadcrumbs and seeing which ones they pick up. And one of the places where I do this is I tend to I tend to see, you know, the next level human podcast. Anytime anyone listens to this podcast, the introduction says you know, as a human, you have a job to do. In fact, you have four jobs. You got, you know, finance, you got health and fitness, you got personal relationships and you kind of have purpose and meaning. And so I see this as like a three-legged stool and we all know what it's like to be on a three-legged stool, where all stools aren't balanced, like you know, and you're kind of floating around like this to me. I'm looking at where's the one that is strong and how can we use aspects of that To bolster the other leg that maybe is weak. And then I look at narratives that go deep, you know, like Oftentimes think about the childhood developmental period, where it's safety and security needs, and the adolescent period of acceptance and belonging needs and you oftentimes see these stories begin in certain Places, right, you know. And freedom and autonomy, you know, needs that are in our early adulthood. But I think it's really cool what you're saying, because I think that when, if we can spot where, um, you know these areas where people are successful in their lives and areas where they're not successful, and then begin to say, hey, look what you're doing here and you could be doing that over here, dropping these breadcrumbs, we're gonna get, you know, I think better results. I want to ask you now about, once we start to get somebody Over and we start to see this cognitive flexibility, we get to see them in possibility, thinking now what happens next? How do we begin, um, to drive this? And I'll just, I'll sort of start you off with a, with a little narrative, because I want to hear I've really been anxious to ask you about this in person, anyway, so I'll just ask you about it here.

Speaker 1: 42:46

The way I oftentimes see this, I see it as like, if you, we have two actors, right, like one actor is the person who shows up with their script and they're, you know, like, let's say it's, it's me Jay, I'm jade tita, and then I'm playing a part, as you know, I don't know Tony soprano or something right. So I go from jade tita and I come in and I read the script for Tony soprano, right, and Once the actor says action, I start playing a role. And when the actor says cut, I go away and I'm back to jade tita. And then there's this other actor who's like the method actor, where it's like, once they get the part for Tony soprano, right, they become that part immediately, they start playing a role. When they wake up in the morning and they play it and and when the the director says action, they're playing, they've already been playing the role, so it's no different. And when the director says cut, they're still playing the role. So I tend to think of it Like this, like you have to get people playing a role, but I've been one.

Speaker 1: 43:42

I've been wanting to ask you, the expert, about this idea, to see how you think about it. Is it accurate? Does it play? You know, does it play out in in? You know, some of your research and some of your clinical experience that we can take now, this growth mindset person who's now ready to take on this role, and, uh, I see it as a difference between fake it till you make it and be it till you see it Right. Faking is like the traditional actor, like you know. Okay, I'm gonna play a role and win him around. Kasey Joe, I'm gonna eat good, but as soon as I get back to my house, I'm gonna free base and Fritos right versus versus the other person who's like no now, whether I'm hanging out with kasey Joe or not, and she's watching me, my role is this. So what would a healthy, fit, functional person do? So I'm wondering how you see this. What would you add to it? What would you subtract? Where am I going wrong with this? Uh, how can coaches use a model? What's a better model perhaps?

Speaker 2: 44:38

Yeah, yeah, this is really interesting and I think both answers are correct, or both, being both types of actors are correct, just at different time periods, right? So when you're trying to learn a new skill, get better at something, develop in some capacity, you are trying to shift from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset. You really are going up against these old patterns, this software literally in your brain. We know it can change, that's what neuroplasticity is but it's not going to change immediately as soon as you're like oh, I feel like I can change, I have ability here. That's great, that's a great first step. But you're going to keep running into this, this old software trying to tell you no, you can't know, you can't know, you can't. So you really do need to get the reps in and continue to try to push yourself down this different pathway and allow that old pathway to get old and unused and overgrown and not go that way anymore. But it's going to take time.

Speaker 2: 45:37

So a lot of people, when they're going through this process, they're like I just still don't fully think, I fully believe it yet, like I'm not really sure I'm there, and that's totally normal and that's exactly how it should feel. There should be some friction. There should be some. I'm not really sure I'm doing this right, or if I'm, why am I not immediately thinking in a growth mindset way? And I'm still like having some of these fixed mindset thoughts? It's exactly how it should be. So you do need to turn it on for a little bit and then maybe it will turn off and then you have to turn it on again. But over time you might notice, as soon as the director says action, you're like oh, I'm already there, that's really cool. So you'll start to notice that over time, and that is the best feeling ever when you notice that your brain went the growth mindset direction without you actually having to put it there. And that will happen over time, for sure.

Speaker 1: 46:29

So it sounds like, if I'm here, you're right, we have, you know, we have this old belief, right? And those for those of you who listening, I'm just holding up one hand to like the video, right, so we have this old belief and then we want to put in this new belief and it sounds like you're saying this new belief is back here a little bit right, it's like it's not as practiced. And then, slowly but surely, as we make this choice, we're sort of moving this forward and this moves backwards. And the only reason I'm doing it that way is because it sounds like, if I'm listening to you, people might think well, I just put this new thing in and this other thing goes away. But what I'm hearing from you, casey Joe, is like actually no, it's not going away, you're just now. It's almost like this competition. So there's a choice point that happens. You have to recognize that choice point, which I think goes back to yourself awareness thing, and then you have to make that choice and slowly but surely, you know that whole, you know Hebb's law, you know neurons that wire together, fire together, wire together. This particular new narrative begins to dominate and then you start finding yourself oh, now I'm the method actor. Now I am the thing, whereas before I was just pretending to be the thing. I love that idea.

Speaker 1: 47:36

What kind of things, then? If that's the case, what kind of things get in the way of making this, this switch, and what kind of things do we know in the research can amplify our ability? Like you hear things like, for example, some that I'll go ahead and throw out and see if they have validity from your perspective. Like we hear that, okay, well, the top five people you hang out with, like, if they're health and fitness people, you're more likely to play that health and fitness script instead of the couch potato script. So maybe that pushes that script forward, right? Or, like other things like that, are environments. You know sort of a big deal, right? So if I don't have it in the house, maybe that's something I'm wondering. What are the things that you know, based on evidence, that are most efficacious? Is it you got to hang out with new people? Is it you got to change your environment? Is it you know something else? I'm just curious. Like now we begin engineering our life, our mindset and different things.

Speaker 2: 48:36

Yeah, the answer is all the above and more.

Speaker 2: 48:39

There are a lot of things that go into this right, and for one person, they may not be as influenced by the people around them, whereas someone else, like that, is such a big influence for them. So, again, self-awareness comes up here. But this is where working with a coach can be really helpful too, so they're actually prompting you with questions to figure out what those things are that may be still barriers for you going down this new path and like trying to steer clear of the old path. So spending more time there can be really, really helpful. And actually, something that comes up for me, like self-control is a big part of a lot of this right. Like talking about willpower, self-control, trying to go, whether it's in your head, like I'm trying to think a different way instead of the other way that is more comfortable and I'm more used to. Like that requires self-control and something that we see in the research, and this has come up and changed quite a bit in the last.

Speaker 2: 49:28

Like five to 10 years, we used to believe that you really only had a certain amount of self-control that you got to use throughout the day and as you used it, whether it was like with your kids at work, at getting yourself to the gym, all these things. You get to the end of the day you have very, very, very little self-control left to give. I think we all can kind of feel that where we get to the end of the day and you're like at the beginning of the day I was perfectly fine with saying no to the second glass of wine, but now, like there's no way, definitely need that at least at least two glasses of wine, right? So I think we've all felt that and that's kind of what the research supported as well. Until recently, what we've learned is that it's not necessarily that you have more self-control or less self-control or it gets depleted throughout the day.

Speaker 2: 50:11

It's really the people who are good at self-control Self-proclaimed I am good at self-control versus someone who says nope, that is not my strong suit. I give into temptation very easily. The difference is in their environments. It's in how often they're actually having to exert self-control in the first place. So the people who think they're really good at self-control, they're really no better than someone else. It's just that they aren't frequently in the position to have to use it. And the person who feels like I'm really bad at self-control not my strong suit they're no worse than the person who's good. It's just that they're constantly putting themselves in situations where they have to exert self-control. So the less often you're having to use self-control, the more you're going to feel like you're good at it.

Speaker 1: 50:58

That's the reality. This is really interesting. Let me play this back to you to make sure I have this right. So there was this idea of the willpower battery, right? So the willpower battery gets drained throughout the day. So it sounds like what you're saying is that, yes, but not really Really. What it's about is that the way you perceive or set up your environment makes you more or less likely to drain this willpower battery.

Speaker 1: 51:24

So it sounded like you said two things there, though it sounded like you said your mindset around am I a good? Do I have good willpower? Maybe that expands your willpower battery, and maybe the idea of when I create my environment and engineer my environment in a particular way, it also expands my willpower battery. So maybe there's no willpower battery at all, really, but certainly our belief about whether we're good at this or not and our environment. It sounds like you're saying the environment might be more important, so they just think they're better at it, but they've really set up their environment so that they actually are. And so am I getting that right? I mean, I think it might be a little bit confusing, so let me just say it one more time. It sounds like you're saying the environment is all that matters. If you basically get your environment right, you're going to be more likely to not fall prey to these willpower things, and you're also going to think that you're better at willpower and control, and that is super interesting, if I have that right.

Speaker 2: 52:28

That is correct, and then we also took to play off that too. We have other studies that show the people who don't believe in this idea of depleting willpower in the first place. They think like, no matter what, like I can still exert self control. Those are the people who essentially are they're not able to experience those effects of the depleting willpower, whereas someone who thinks like, oh yeah, that makes sense you heard me with that wine example You're thinking like oh yeah, that's me. I definitely lose my willpower throughout the day. I don't have as much self control if I have to use it more, if you believe that it will be true. So it is kind of like these two different things where, like your environment, your environment and your mindset matter the most and ultimately you get to create what that willpower battery looks like, whether it is very much a real thing or it doesn't exist at all, and that's all based on your own perceptions and your environment.

Speaker 1: 53:25

Yeah, you and I haven't talked about this yet, but we could talk about it now. But part of my work because I think you know I'm back getting my PhD in trans personal psychology and part of my interest and part of the research that I want to do. My hypothesis is that our stories and our narratives and of course I'm interested in where these narratives eventually come from, and of course it's all a hypothesis until you prove it. But my hypothesis is exactly what you said, that it is the story that we tell about ourselves and that story comes out of a historical narrative that ultimately determines how we manage all of this kind of stuff and this. When I hear this, I'm like, oh, that's an interesting component, because it sounds like we're starting to see that perhaps this is a line of research that is pointing in that particular direction. And I also would say that when your narrative and this is another thing that needs to be worked out in research but when your narrative story is a particular way about who I am, then of course your environment is going to reflect that as well, so it's going to be harder to sort of tease out. And so here's another research question. I just want to banter around with you now, if you don't mind, just playing with me so we can have some of the discussions that I've been dying to ask you for a while now.

Speaker 1: 54:42

One of the things as we go through this process and I'm wondering, you know, of course, as the coaches are listening there's two things that happen right. Like you know, you mentioned the manifestation people, right, and this idea of law of attraction. You just think a thing and it's going to come true, right. And from my perspective, like you, I like some of these ideas. I see them as largely there's a large misapprehension there about how this probably works. But the way I see it is like, okay, you can think right, and then there's a feeling attached with that, and then there's choices and actions. So I think of it, as you know, being, if you're being, a thing. I think of it as the way you think, the way you feel, the way you choose and the way you act, all of those things being in alignment. And so part of my hypothesis also is and you kind of alluded to this, but I just want to see what you think is that we can come at this from any direction, and I do have my own bias, at which direction I think matters more. So if we think about thinking, feeling, choosing, acting, all in sort of a line to me, I go, I can change my thinking and maybe that influences my feeling, which influences my choices, which influences my actions. Or I can simply change my actions and then that then reinforces my choices. I feel a particular way and think a particular way, and I have a hypothesis that acting as if is a faster path to being versus thinking being a faster path to being. Now, of course, we want all of them in alignment and I kind of can see them coming at it from either direction. That it's of course both and.

Speaker 1: 56:19

But I'm wondering if you have an opinion on this, based on your research, based on your clinical background, what do you think is more powerful? I mean, obviously, if we can think and act simultaneously. I just tend to think if you're thinking, you're not necessarily. That's not necessarily going to translate into acting. However, if you're acting, it's much more easily translated into thinking, feeling and choosing.

Speaker 1: 56:41

So I'm wondering what your thought is on this, as if you know sort of principle, and one of the I'll just give you.

Speaker 1: 56:48

You'll know this study, but I'll just key it up for people who are, you know, maybe new to this idea, like one of the one of the studies that makes me think of this, that you may actually say, oh, this is gonna, you know, is accurate or not. Is this idea of you know, essentially looking at people and say, hey, go to your happy place, like Happy Gilmore, and let's look at how fast those happy centers light up in the brain? You know the areas associated with happiness. Or we can just force you into a smile, you know, by sticking, you know, a, a, a pencil in your teeth and forcing you into the smile and then see how fast this sort of change happens. And it seems, as if based on some of this research, that simply laughing and smiling is perhaps a faster way to feel what you want to feel than thinking about this Happy Gilmore place. And so this is kind of what I'm thinking about, and I've always wanted to ask you about this to see what your thoughts are and how you've translated some of this research.

Speaker 2: 57:43

You know what's funny is, when you were talking about this, I was thinking about the pencil study. Yeah, yeah, I'm talking about this.

Speaker 2: 57:50

It is, yeah, so you're actually doing the action and how that translates to feeling something which, again, I want you guys to just picture how, if you do it yourself right now, take a pencil and put it in your mouth and kind of forces you to smile in a way. It's not the best smile, but it's a smile nonetheless and like that actually produces some sort of happiness feeling in people. Right, how wild is that? So, thinking about that too, like I think I agree with you that doing the thing, the actual action, is probably the quicker way, and I think part of this, too, is that we do already spend so much time in our head thinking about like, oh, what could this be like? What would this feel like, what is what? What would my life look like if and that is not translating to it actually happening, like doing the behaviors that are associated with that thing.

Speaker 2: 58:44

So I think, too a big part of this, that part of this conversation, really is cognitive dissonance as well, where there is this disconnect between what we're doing and what we're thinking, or how we see ourselves, and then what the actions we actually end up taking, and when that is misaligned, we have cognitive dissonance and that feels really really bad to us. As humans. We like to be consistent, we like to hey, we say we're going to do something and then we do it If we don't. That doesn't feel good. So I do think that there, that's part of this conversation in general. So if you're thinking all of the time, I want to do this thing, I want to be this way, whatever, but you're never actually taking any actions in alignment with that, you're going to run into this cognitive dissonance.

Speaker 2: 59:28

I think it's. What's interesting is, if you do the action, you do the thing, but you're maybe not fully believing that you are that person who would do that thing. Yet you're still doing the thing, so you're still proving it to yourself. I feel like there would be less of a cognitive dissonance there if the actions associated are actually being completed. So that's kind of like where my brain went with it and how I make sense of it, and I feel like that would be feel more consistent for us and that's ultimately what we want to achieve. I lost you there for a second.

Speaker 1: 1:00:10

Yeah, I got you back. You just blipped out for a sec, yeah, yeah. So, and actually you know there's a book on this case, joe, you probably know it's called the as if principle. You know, and the research is not great necessarily in this area, but I'm I'm fascinated with this, you know, sort of studying this. So I want to ask, I want to run one more thing by you, and then I want to talk about your coaching program, and so you know, we and I want to just reinforce for people what Casey Joe has been educating us on.

Speaker 1: 1:00:39

So there's this idea of fixed mindset. We need to move them to growth mindset. She's teaching us this self awareness. You know, casey Joe, you've made us kind of go look, self awareness is everything. So then, as a coach, that's one of the things we need to do subtly right, because we can't be in someone's face as a fixed mindset because we're going to run into, you know, people, people spend an awful lot of time defending their old identities instead of dismantling them, and so in a sense, we're, we're kind of doing this psychological black ops as coaches, right, we're slowly trying to dismantle the way they see themselves, get them thinking laterally. Now we move them into the growth mindset, and Casey Joe is as kind of educated us on how we can begin to help them start to make change now with this sort of old idea of being, you know, sort of now having a choice point with a new idea and then working that that sort of process so that the new idea becomes the dominant thing. And then we talked about this idea of you know, this alignment in thinking, feeling, choosing and acting, and that obviously we need both.

Speaker 1: 1:01:38

But as a hypothesis, casey Joe and I seem to be in agreement that maybe acting might be the better way to go here. And then I look at it like okay. So if this is the case, this is the next and maybe last part I want to talk to you about. Is that okay? So if we can take this continuum of thinking, feeling, choosing and acting, with choosing and acting being the brain watching you do the thing, so the brain is becoming convinced oh Jay, it's not full of shit, he's actually doing what he says he's going to do. Still, perhaps thinking and feeling might not be fully online, right? Because then all of a sudden it's like you know, action is a lot and choices are contextual to a large degree. So, you know, can't always make you know the choices. Maybe I'm going to the gym and my brain's getting on board with that, but I'm also free, free basing cheesecake. Every time I get, you know, stick my head in the refrigerator, and that's a whole other thing. So the idea that is and this is something I'm just so curious what this happens is that we do, I think, have to thinking and feeling. Right, we can split these four up to thinking and feeling and choosing and acting.

Speaker 1: 1:02:46

And the thinking and feeling piece I think is really hard for people, and so I'm wondering what the tools are for that. For example, there's meditation techniques that can put you in, you know, sort of feeling based emotions, like some of the research coming out of HartMath Institute, which I think are really interesting, where people are doing heart centered meditation and being able to feel a sense of gratitude that perhaps they haven't been able to feel before and that translates into being different, right, because we're impacting the feeling aspect of being. I'm wondering what evidence based tools we have, if any that you're aware of, that are the best at helping us think and feel, Because, from my perspective, we need to. You know, it's going to be far better if we can practice feeling the thing like, if we can feel successful. I'll key this up for you just so we can make it more tangible.

Speaker 1: 1:03:42

There's research that looks at older research that was looking at, for example. What I can remember about these studies is people shooting basketball free throws right and they have one group. That's actually. They bring all the groups in, they shoot the free throws, they test them and then they have one group sit up in the stands and imagine visualizing shooting the free throws and feeling as if they're making the free throws but they're not actually taking the action. The other group is actually showing up to the gym every day and actually shooting free throws. Both groups tend to improve after these activities and, of course, the group that later on research looked at the group that visualized and actually took the actions did the best.

Speaker 1: 1:04:25

But I'm wondering what other tools we have besides visualization and feeling based meditation, if any. We have to really practice this thinking and feeling aspect and your thoughts on this in general. Do you feel like this is junk science? Do you feel like this is really useful science? Do you feel like it has a role to play? Because the way I would see this is a coach could essentially be saying you know, obviously they're working with their client one on one, dropping these cognitive flexibility. You know breadcrumbs helping people move to this. You know sort of more growth mindset. Is there a role to play where you can essentially say, okay, now I'm actually going to get you in feeling based meditation as well? As you know some action oriented. You know personal development PRs. You know. You know personal records where they're actually doing things out in the real world. Are you aware of this concept making a difference and do you use it and do you teach it to your coaches?

Speaker 2: 1:05:30

So I think, yes, in a way, but maybe not exactly in the way that you are presenting it here. I think what happens more often than not are that people are really caught up in their thoughts, of their feelings, and it's less about how do we bring more of that into it and more about, like, how do we get maybe a little bit more clinical and logical about what the heck is going on in our brains, right? So something that comes up for me is a practice that I teach to coaches and we use with our clients at my own coaching company too. It's using pieces of cognitive behavioral therapy. Obviously, we are not therapists, that's not what I'm saying but you can leverage cognitive behavioral therapy even for yourself, which is really really cool, and it's something that you can do to help break negative thought patterns. So, again, it's like these, these thought patterns or feelings, emotions, things that are coming up and you just can't make sense of, but yet they're driving your behavior. It's like we need to kind of like to like tweeze those things apart and figure out what's going on. So something that you can do with this if you're having a recurring negative thought that seems to be getting in the way of you taking action or just feeling good, and it just keeps coming up for you. Number one obviously you have to identify what that thing is, but then you can start to think. Number one what evidence do I have to support this thought? And here's the thing you're not having this thought. If you have zero evidence. Something happened to you at some time in your life. You've had some sort of experience. There's been some sort of person who has made you have this thought. Right. So think about it like what evidence do you have to support this? So if someone's thinking I'm not capable of losing weight, it's just like I've tried so many different things, it doesn't work for me, type of thing. So if that's the negative thought that's recurring, what evidence do you have to support that? Well, you've tried 12 different types of diets. None of them have worked. So like that's some solid evidence. So you need to like, give yourself some grace and know that your feelings are valid for that. But then this next step would be well, what evidence do you have against that thought? And so we can say OK, the evidence that I have against it is well, I've never actually worked with a one on one health and fitness coach before. So, although I may have quote unquote failed 12 times before and that's making me feel like this isn't possible when I met now and the resources that I have at my disposal now and what I'm doing now is totally different than anything I've done in the past. So that would be like comparing apples and oranges type of thing, like, ok, cool Evidence for evidence against now taking that information.

Speaker 2: 1:08:01

What's the most accurate depiction of this thought? Like really, like truly what is real here? And so that person might think I feel like I'm not capable because my track record has not been great. However, I'm trying different things now. So it's sort of unfair to compare that track record to where I am now and it's like OK, that is the reality, that's the truth Right Now.

Speaker 2: 1:08:25

How does it feel this is sort of like step four at this point? And how does it feel, now that you've gotten to this point of recognizing the reality of this thought versus what's spiraling in your head, and for someone to really sit with that and think like I feel so much better now, like this feels more real, it feels more tangible, I feel more capable, I feel more powerful, I'm like more excited about what's to come, and so that's a really good process to sort of like sit with those thoughts and feelings and tweeze them apart. And I think again like that's more so the issue that I see Not like let's get into our feelings and bring feelings in, but let's figure out what we're doing with the current feelings we have and how they may be like getting in the way or being detrimental At the same time. Maybe there are some feelings that are beneficial and we could find those inside, inside doing practices like this too.

Speaker 2: 1:09:15

I think in general, the more that we can try to take a step back and remove ourselves from those thoughts and feelings and understand that thoughts can be just thoughts. You don't need to act on them, they don't need to turn into feelings, can literally be just a thought like oh, that's interesting that my brain came up with that and then move on, that's all. It doesn't need to go any further than that, and sometimes people just haven't even had that thought about their thoughts before, right. But the more we can remove ourselves and say like oh, there goes my brain again. Give your brain a name, give your mind a name. Like there goes you know Shirley again spewing whatever bullshit she's got for me today, and the more you can do that, the better and the more control you're going to have over those thoughts and you can actually start to redirect them.

Speaker 1: 1:10:00

Yeah, I love that so much. That's so useful and it does remind me of a lot of the internal family system stuff that you know that I work with, that you and I have talked about briefly offline. But, yeah, this is so brilliant. It's also that last little part two goes back to a very tangible way to do what you warned us about in the beginning, which is self awareness as the first tool. So we are right up on an hour. I want to be respectful of your time. Let's just talk briefly about your coaching program, because I know a lot of people who listen to my podcast are going to want to, you know, sort of get involved with your work after listening to you.

Speaker 2: 1:10:36

Yeah, for sure. So what is it?

Speaker 1: 1:10:37

exactly and how long you've been doing it. And, yeah, tell us all about it.

Speaker 2: 1:10:42

Yeah, it really is my baby. It's my bread and butter. This is our eighth round that we're moving into in March of 2024. For those of you who might be listening to this later on moving into the eighth round, it is a certification program for health and fitness professionals. We've had other folks come through to who are of different professions mental health counselors, doctors, lawyers, nurses, occupational therapists pretty much anyone who is working with human behavior, which is a lot of people but it is mainly for online health and fitness coaches to learn how to leverage the science of mindset and behavior change with their clients. So it's a 13 week certification program.

Speaker 2: 1:11:19

We do provide CEUs for a whole host of governing bodies of exercise and nutrition certifications as well, and we start by going into really like the foundations of behavior change and the longstanding theories that we have out there, the frameworks that we essentially can show Like this is how humans tend to change, how to not change, how to make decisions. We'll talk a lot about mindset, of course, during that time and then move into what is most people are excited to learn about things like habits, motivation, goal setting, stress, self control, growth versus fixed mindset and, essentially, how to leverage again the science of all of those things and truly like how do I put them into a client check in form? So we're getting very granular. This is very, very, very applicable to the health and fitness coach. We talk a lot about communication methods and certain questions you could be asking clients and again, we do a lot of application works. We're talking about hypothetical client situations. You're coming to live calls where you can bring client cases to us.

Speaker 2: 1:12:19

The final is a case study. So we want you to actually take what you learned and apply it and we'll give you some great feedback For what to do going forward. And yeah, that's kind of the gist of it. We have a great time, we're always like a close knit family by the end of it and you are with me every step of the way. So it is, I say it's self paced, but instructor led. So all of the modules are pre recorded so you can kind of watch them on your own time throughout the week 15 minutes here, 10 minutes there, whatever you want to do. But then we'll get together on a live call to kind of again apply the information, talk about how this might make sense for your clients and that sort of thing. So we have that live call. That is somewhat optional but also a really good time every single week. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:12:59

And actually let me just say something about this to all of you listening. So I saw it, casey Joe, out for this right. So you know, usually when you, when someone has a certification, they're like hey, can I be on your podcast? I want to promote my certification. It's the other way around here.

Speaker 1: 1:13:14

I actually wanted Casey Joe to come on this podcast because my contention is that we're just not doing this well. We're all focused on, you know, and even in some of my certifications that some of you have taken, you know, like the female fat loss certification and other certifications, these things are not going to be effective without Casey Joe certification. From my perspective, I wanted her to come on because I wanted to have people understand that this should be the first thing that you professionals actually get educated on, because all the other stuff is not going to work without this understanding, and so that's why I wanted you on. So I do think this is very different, because I know you guys listen to a ton of different podcasts and someone comes on and they want to promote their thing.

Speaker 1: 1:13:59

I actually told Casey Joe please come on so you can promote this, because I'm so passionate that people need this, and I do think, casey Joe, you are the teacher to do this. You're incredibly humble, you're brilliant. You really are bringing something that we all need. So I just want to say thank you, and it just thrills me that you agreed to come on, and I just highly recommend all your work to everyone before we go. You, you're constantly educating online, so where do people find you on social media? Where do they find you on your websites and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:14:33

First of all, thank you, that was so sweet. I so appreciate you. I spend most of my time on Instagram. As far as social media goes, you'll find me on TikTok, you'll find me on YouTube, but it is. It is minimal and it's not actually me. Most of the time it's my team repurposing stuff. But I'm coached Casey Joe across all platforms. So it's coach with a C but Casey with a K, joe without an E. We'll throw that one in there too. And if you're interested in learning more about the certification program, you can go to healthmindsetcertcom. It's the Health Mindset Coaching Certification. There's an Instagram page for the certification as well, but that should pretty much get you started, and tons of free content as well, tons of valuable information just to really get you started on like, what is the art of coaching.

Speaker 1: 1:15:17

Yeah, I'm so excited for my community to get to know you. Thank you so much for your work. Don't hang up the line because I just want to make sure all this gets uploaded, but for all of you listening, thanks so much for hanging out. I hope you love Casey Joe the way I do and we will see you at the next show.