Navigating Female Desire and Sexual Fulfillment with Dr. Jordin Wiggins- Ep. 254

Speaker 1: 1:25

Welcome to the show, everybody. I am excited, very excited, to introduce you to Dr Jordan Wiggins today. She's someone who I've been watching for a while and her education is incredible. She's an ND, like myself, but she specializes in because you know, we were just talking about my demographic as mostly women, and Jordan specializes in female pleasure and so, by the way, any of you men who are listening, you're hoping Listen up clean in a little more.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Listen up for sure. See, jordan, you're just. You're really amazing in the way you teach. You're incredibly humble, incredibly charismatic and talking about things that I think our culture, you know, really just brushes under the rug. And I've been working with women my whole career, and one of the things we'll start out with here is that I'll give you my take on this.

Speaker 1: 2:16

The way I see the modern day woman is, she is everything to everybody, right. She's managing everything in the world managing the household, managing her career, managing her dysfunction, her partner's dysfunction, her kid's dysfunction, figuring out everything, and also even in the bedroom. The way I see it is like they're managing that too. They're managing your orgasm. They want to make you feel well. They're managing their orgasms. They want to like feel good as well. They're just.

Speaker 1: 2:47

It's like it seems like women just have this thing where they are taking care of the entire world, and sometimes I wonder, as a man, I sit there and listen. I'm gonna say how the hell are these women doing this? And so I know that you teach in this, and so I want you to kind of start where you want, because I can imagine most of the women who are my followers who are listening to this. They're caught in this world and they're probably thinking to themselves okay, like I don't know, I don't know. The first thing about it is I'm managing so many damn things. What do I do to get back to this place where I can feel good in my body, feel good about my pleasure, feel good about, you know, just doing for myself in this realm, because it's such a core need of humans? And, of course, women own this domain. It's like you know. It's like they're sexual artists. They are the ones who invite us into this space and help us transcend, and they're having problems transcending themselves. And so where do we start with this conversation?

Speaker 2: 3:55

And not when we are burnt out and exhausted and the pleasure centers in our brain are turned off. So yeah, and I think that's a very excellent summary, I love it that's women are coming to me in that space where they're saying usually it's like one of two things, but one is my marriage is on the rocks, like I never want to have sex. It's the last thing on the list, and I'm just, you know, so exhausted that they're. They're doing it to do it, but it's like routine checkbox sex where they're just doing it to get it over with, which isn't really fun for anyone.

Speaker 1: 4:39

And that right there, by the way, george, that right there is something that is again unique to women, that they would literally give up themselves in that way, like men don't do that.

Speaker 2: 4:49

You have no idea how heartwarming it is that you, that you picked that, you know that and said that because it's true that we would self sacrifice to the point of it's like you can have my body, you can enter me, and I don't even really feel like it. It's like just totally for your pleasure to get it over with, to check that box, to say that they did, you know, to make their, their partner happy. But then it's then we get in this like hungry ghost dynamic where no one's satisfied because even the partner, like their male partners, usually like they want more, they want more sex, because it's like it's like eating junk food, you know, it's like you feel kind of full at the time but there was no nutrients. You're not really satisfied after because she wasn't present, she was waiting to get it over with, and like that somehow sense that.

Speaker 2: 5:48

Oh, I think a totally energetically. I don't think a lot of men could, they would put words to it or really know that that's what they're missing. But they're looking to connect on a different level. They want her presence, they want to see her undone in her different waves of emotion or pleasure or whatever's coming up and like in what man's going to say, like that that's what he wants, right? They're not going to say that. They're going to say they want to get it in or whatever term they would use. But when they're, they're missing that connection because the pleasure centers are turned off, which we can, we can talk about, but that's. There's this low libido, lack of desire epidemic that research says one in two women will experience sexual dysfunction in their life. I personally find that that's a lot higher. Would you say the same?

Speaker 1: 6:52

Yes, I would say that the vast majority of my female clients that I would say it's the other way around two in one versus one in two.

Speaker 2: 7:02

Yes, yeah, I completely agree as well, and that's also the demographic that I work with, so I understand that there's a little bias there, but this is a big problem, and could you imagine if one in two men had sexual dysfunction Like that?

Speaker 1: 7:18

it would Well they do, but it's in a different way. It's, it's not, it's more. It's more because they're not aware of what you already kind of alluded to. And I do think this is why, you know, men really need to listen up. Actually, when I was going to have you on Jordan, I told a couple of my guy friends I said I'm having like the coolest educator on and you have to, you have to. You know, you guys are going to need to listen to this.

Speaker 2: 7:43

And it's so funny because more and more men are reaching out. My male following is growing, which is like it's fascinating because I think they want the information and they want to get it from a source that they are like OK, like this is she's she's talking directly to my wife or directly to my partner, like she must get it, so they want to know how to help. And a lot of men I find are very well intentioned. They're just as like it's like the blind leading the blind.

Speaker 1: 8:20

We've had not educated sexual health education Terrible.

Speaker 2: 8:24

We either didn't have it or we learned don't get an STI and don't get pregnant. Like we, we had reproductive health education which was layered with shame and like it was not pleasure education. We haven't been taught.

Speaker 1: 8:44

And of course, the porn culture. You know it's like people think that whole porn culture is. If you're a young man, especially nowadays, like when I, you know, when I was coming up, they didn't have porn like they do now it wasn't yet like steal your your parents' magazines and stuff like that to, you know, like to even see any of that stuff. So I wonder about the kids nowadays, like my nephews, who are boys, oftentimes asked me about that and it's like just like realize that's not real sex, you know, like you know.

Speaker 1: 9:12

So, yeah, it's a really difficult landscape and I do feel like women are the ones having to navigate this. It's like they're navigating it for themselves and they're navigating it for men and men are not necessarily listening, unfortunately. You know, and I think, I think you're right, because there's a lot of insecurity, you know, sort of around that, or you know, at least sexually, we as humans, if someone says or tries to coach us or wants to guide us, it can be you know where. You know people go, oh my God, and they get defensive. And then then what does a woman do with that? You know.

Speaker 2: 9:52

Yes, in that that delicate even the communication part is is huge. Because there are people that have been married, they have children and the wife has never orgasmed during sex she's faked it the whole time and their partner has no clue. No clue and she is scared to death to bring it up because of how it would make him feel. And that just the simple fact that only one third of women reliably orgasm from penetration like penis and vagina. The other two thirds of women need clitoral stimulation to orgasm, but the focus for most people when they're having sex is penis and vagina.

Speaker 1: 10:49

So, and there's an expectation- to, which puts an extra burden on the woman. It's like you know I need you. Let us by say I think women are managing all the orgasms right, so they're just like okay, well, I know he wants to feel special and like he accomplished something and it's a turn on to him. So I'm probably not, I'm definitely not going to be able to have an orgasm all of the time and therefore so I'm managing that for him, which puts her in a whole different mental state. Sexually.

Speaker 1: 11:15

That's different than the way the man is approaching sex. So now imagine that if you're a man, right where you're essentially now, you know now, instead of just focus on your own pleasure, you have to, you know, sort of manage this whole dynamic of I have to make sure they feel accomplished, and you know, and get them off and make them feel good. And then also, you know I would like to have something for myself. And of course, you and I both know it's like everyone knows, right, man, it's like pretty much stimulation to ejaculation, like you know. It's like it's pretty straightforward, and you know you look at graphs on this, by the way.

Speaker 1: 11:46

I know, you know this, george you look at like that men turn 15 and not, you know, it's like 95% have orgasms and you know, 95% of the time Like and for women it's not like that. That stuff doesn't even start to peak until 30. It's like 15 years later and then it's not nearly as reliable. And I do think that you know women, you know that's why I like, I like what you're doing, because I feel like men and women both need to understand that. I don't think that they do, and so then they feel like am I broken? You know?

Speaker 2: 12:17

And so you know they're like total blaming of themselves. Women come to me with such shame, Like there's something wrong with me, what am I doing wrong or there? I just must not orgasm during sex because I actually think with proper education we could change those graphs Like there's no reason why a 25 year old couldn't, female couldn't, have multiple orgasms in a sexual encounter. I bet you same sex like women with women, the graph would look totally different. Oh yeah. Because, the focus is pleasure. The focus is not penetration.

Speaker 1: 12:56

And they understand the dynamics of the female, the female body. Let's unpack this a little bit. I would love to know the you know I would. I would love to know the mechanism, the mechanism here, and maybe I'll give you sort of my hypothesis and you can correct me and be like Jay Jay, jay, jay, Jay you're wrong.

Speaker 1: 13:15

Or you know, jay, jay, you're right and you know, just educate me on this. But you know, so I don't, I've never, obviously I've never, had a female orgasm. I don't, I don't know what that's, what that is like, but I do know, physiologically speaking, that you know we have threat mode, we have striving mode and then we have rest and recovery mode. And so, if you're, you know to me the way I look at it. It's like, okay, maybe you're not in danger. And, by the way, you know, just for people to kind of hear this on, like to me, I go like this let's say we're out on the plains of Africa, right, and we see a lion, we're going to be in threat mode because we see the lion. Now, if the lion goes away, right, just because the lion has gone away, okay, we're no longer in threat mode. But we're still in striving mode because we're looking and being like, maybe the lion's coming back. It's not until we get in the house, you know, and we're safe, that we go. Okay, now I can rest and relax.

Speaker 1: 14:06

And my theory goes like this that Most women are either in threat and striving mode for many reasons because of all the things that you and I just unpacked in terms of the overwhelm, the managing, all the things, and so they don't get to get in the house. So they're either threat mode or striving mode, and to me I go. Well, if you're not in rest and recovery mode and relaxation mode, how are you gonna turn on that parasympathetic relaxation so you can even get in that feeling place and that deep sensuality that you want to experience? So that's my theory. Now, where am I wrong on this? Where am I right? What other things do we need to be aware of?

Speaker 2: 14:48

I heard everything right and I wrote a book about it the canary but that's high level, high level.

Speaker 2: 14:56

You got that correct. They have done MRIs on people's brains that when they are stressed, the pleasure centers in their brain are turned off or not as active. And how that translates in real life is you know your partner, you're washing dishes and your partner comes up behind you to grab your butt or give you a hug, or in your like get away from me. Or you're looking at the clock during sex, waiting it for it to be over. Like touch is not as pleasurable. Your orgasms aren't as pleasurable, though, because those pleasure centers in your brain are off when you're in Fight or strive mode and, like you mentioned, just with women and what they do and how much they manage, how much of the invisible workload is on their plate. Like they're, they're constantly going. They don't get to cut, like coming home in the house. That is in a safe place. That isn't okay. Now I get to relax for my day. Now it's like there's a hundred other things.

Speaker 2: 18:32

My second job is now starting, so Most women that part of their brains turned off, and that's what I'm working to do is to teach them how to get it back on, how can they have the Career and manage the things and also be able to Access that part of their brain and said, like sadly, it is a, we have to Micro dose it. Like we have to step wise, get them to receiving more, more pleasure, more good. Like to turn off that fight, flight, freeze and get them into that parasympathetic state where they Feel good and they want to feel any. And this is in and out of the bedroom. So I'll have women that say, like I just don't feel like myself. I used to be funny, I used to have more friends, like that I'm, but I'm just like exhausted, I just don't. I'll cancel plans if I make them like I'm just you know they're, they're flat and that's a sign to me that their pleasure centers are, are off.

Speaker 1: 19:48

Yeah, you know, I know it's interesting, jordan, to me this is kind of like tell me what you think about this, because this feels like. It feels like almost a catch twenty two right, like because, okay, so now you as a woman, you know, you listen to someone like Jordan and you go okay, I have to begin to rest, recover, relax, but you got a partner right and now you have to teach this partner, like you know, that yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:12

So then there's rage.

Speaker 1: 20:13

So then they're almost like why don't I got something else? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 20:18

I've got, now I have to do something else. There's so, once there's this, almost like realization in this unpacking of like. Now I have more work to do. They, they're mad, and of course they're mad. I was mad too when I figured it out. So, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic, but I find that relationships and desire are very their feminine lead.

Speaker 2: 20:48

And I just find that that's like a universal reality, that when we accept, that's great. And what we also have to accept is, this is the dynamic that we've created, unless you want to blow up your relationship or your partnership and go find something different, now that you have the realization which is not the option that most of the people are coming to me for, they're coming to me like how do I heal what's already here? How do we shift that, like revive that dynamic? So it's interesting, but it's also once we can, you know, feel the feelings, process the anger, and sometimes it's not even directed at our partners, like some of it is, but some of it's just Society and the roles that we've allowed each other to fall into and Expectations of a partnership.

Speaker 2: 21:46

Like a lot of people don't talk about these things before they get together. It's just sort of like okay, well, my parents did it this way and your parents did it that way, and we just sort of fall into this dynamic without being conscious or intentional about it or without, like you know, men realizing you want more Sex. Well, she needs to feel safer. So she doesn't feel safe, then you're not, you're not gonna get as much of what you want, so it. But it's interesting because when we go by Female desire, it leads to more. More for everyone, more pleasure for everybody.

Speaker 1: 22:30

Yes, so tell me where where this starts. And actually it's really interesting, right, like you, you were saying that you know a lot more, a lot of men, lot more men. I can't remember if we were offline or online when you said that, I think, but you said there's a lot more men coming To you. Now, right, and maybe that that's the thing. Right, because that's I, it almost sounds like, and that's why I was like, oh, this is interesting. It's almost like catch twenty two, because the men need to be educated and the woman should not be. You know they have to. It sucks, but they shouldn't have to be the ones to educate the man, especially. What is one more thing on there to do list? And so maybe it's a really good thing that men are starting to come away. You know it's funny because there's a book that I love. It's called come as you are.

Speaker 2: 23:14

I'm sure you know Emily and the ghost and she just came out with a new one, did she? Yeah, I can't wait to read it.

Speaker 1: 23:22

yeah, I can't wait either. But it's funny, that's a book she wrote that book for For women I get. I tell all my guy friends I guess it is required reading for men and the men who have read that I think it is fundamentally changed the dynamic and relationship they have with their women. So it is really tough, right, because this is like you know. Of course you know we're talking. Everyone should forgive me because I'm a cis heterosexual male, so I know it's not just male, male, female dynamics, but that's where I come from, because that's my experience. But in that particular case it just seems like if you are cis hetero and you're dealing with a man, that he's got to be on board in some way, shape or form. Or can this be done alone? Like, can a woman actually do this work by herself? I'm just curious, like, how successful are your clients when they have to go at this alone, without their partner involved?

Speaker 2: 24:17

Well, that that's the majority of the cases that I've worked with for the last five years, like specifically teaching this stuff on sex pleasure and intimacy. It has just been with the woman, but when she has a receptive partner, they like the benefits are so much faster but, yeah, oh yeah, definitely, because then there's like two people growing together as opposed to one.

Speaker 2: 24:44

But the way I do it is like we're giving the woman the education about herself, about her body. She's exploring her desires, because that's the other thing is we've been everybody's trying to get back to the sex that they were having when they first met, or the sex that they were having when they were 20. And like, your body's changed, your hormones have changed, what you desire has changed, what your needs, your nervous system, like there's just so sex isn't stagnant. But that's what everyone thinks. Like, oh well, I just want to get back to that, like when we first met and hormonally and this is explained in my book too it's not like that in long term relationship, the dopamine and the norepinephrine, like those hormone release when it's a new relationship, very, very different, like we're creating oxytocin connection. It's a different level of intimacy.

Speaker 2: 25:43

So those people that are trying to constantly get back to this are like oh well, this used to turn her on or this used to work. Like, yeah, okay, 10 years ago, very different now. Like so, but there's a beauty in that because if we can accept it, that desire should evolve and change, then it creates that newness or that element where it's not going to get boring or stagnant, because your sex is going to evolve and deepen and the things that you can try together are. You know, you can order way more things off the menu over time when you are safe and connected and have communication and understand about, like energy play and BDSM dynamics, like there's just so many things that we can do, but people are stuck doing the same things, the checkbox over and over. It's boring.

Speaker 1: 26:48

Okay, so this is, I guess. So now we're kind of adding a layer onto this, right? So the layer one, if we are listening to Jordan, is like, hey, we have to get you into rest sort of recovery mode, and that. What's really interesting, I think, for men is that that's most of the things going on outside of the bedroom that even allow, like, obviously, getting in the bedroom for a man might be like, well, let's make love and that's going to reduce your stress. Well, I don't think that might be the truth for you as a man, but it's not true for the woman necessarily. So there's things that have to be going on outside of the bedroom to help you as a woman become more rest and recovery oriented, which, like you know, then I start, my head starts going.

Speaker 1: 27:34

So, like, literally, then me, you know, like, if I have a partner, right, and I am and this is a question to you, by the way like you could, just you can kind of beat up on me and be like JD got it wrong or JD got it right, but if I'm listening to what you're saying, it's like, okay, well then, when you come home from work, you know, let's say we have a little one too, right, I don't have kids, you know, but let's say we did and you know, you come home from work and the nanny sort of goes away and I come home, right, and then there's dishes to be done and there's you know other things. It's like, rather than me being like, okay, babe, you know, take care of the dishes, or you know, do you know, do the cooking, or whatever, then I have to be aware, like a woman would be aware, that these things need to be done and I need to show up in a way and be like okay, if she's got 10 things on her plate, I really should try to figure out how to make her life easier in a way. So she has, you know, eight things and I got four things. So I can, I can add a couple things to my plate and maybe that takes some of the to-do list out of her head.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Because you know, I think what you're educating which I don't always think about this, because my brain doesn't work like this is that women seem to have to-do lists all through their head and they're thinking about all these checklists. So if I'm able to take some of those off and do it naturally, like I'm, you know like, hey, babe, why don't you relax, like I'm going to go, I'll go to the grocery store. You should, like you know, jump in the sauna or get a workout in, or do whatever you need to do for you. Is this where things need to start, outside of the bedroom? And, as a woman, then, how do you, how do you clue your man into that, to let them know that, hey, by the way, when you do the dishes, you know, and take out the trash and actually run to the grocery store without being asked without being asked when you do those things and when you're the one who, like, says, hey, we need milk and we need this and we need that.

Speaker 1: 29:21

that gives me the space to want to go down on you later, right?

Speaker 2: 29:25

Yes, that equals more blowjobs.

Speaker 1: 29:28

Yeah, I'm going to send, I'm going to text that out to my man. My guys friends, yeah, I'm going to be like hey guys, just so you know.

Speaker 2: 29:38

Yes, well, and then so, but then we get in this whole other layer, like it's like messy and I mean I'm working on not loving mess, but so so we have men and they're well intentioned and they're like, yeah, like I want to help my wife feel less stressed and I want to connect and show her how much I love her physically, but then sometimes he goes to take the things off her to do list. But then because of how we've been conditioned as women, as a society, we pick up on that as a failure. We are failing as a wife, we are failing as a mother. So then her claws are going to come out right. So there's just. There's so much story and stuckness and meaning that we make of it all.

Speaker 1: 30:30

So then it's learning to receive.

Speaker 2: 30:32

Yes, which is what I also have to teach women. And then the man goes like what the hell?

Speaker 1: 30:39

Yeah, because the way I just offered to help.

Speaker 2: 30:42

I just did, like why is she down my throat? I just did something nice. So it's like and this is why the tips online and stuff don't work Like if Cosmo would have solved our sex problems and like our relationship problems would have been, you know, solved by the communication scripts that we're seeing from relationship therapists that you've saved and like don't miss, just because it's like it's so layered, which I find fascinating. But and that's why really we do need both parties to shift this Like I have accepted the challenge of how can I help with just working with the woman and it does work. But it's obviously way, way easier if their partner is receptive and understanding these things as well.

Speaker 2: 31:40

But that's why I have like handouts and things in my program, because she'll do it and learn about herself and her body and then he can do it and they can look at each other's and then now they have this whole new understanding and he's saying so. Oh, like, if she's saying no or turning me down or whatever, it's not a rejection, it's not because she doesn't want it, it's just because of these other things. So it gives them this whole new like language and way to relate. So that's kind of how I shifted on both sides is my handouts and the dynamics and really just giving women permission to for their pleasure.

Speaker 1: 32:23

You know you said something in there, jordan, that does dovetail into some of my work in terms of rewriting people's programming. It's like, it's literally like. So step one is, yeah, get out of threat and strive mode the way I would put it and like you have to pay attention to that. But then there's this idea that you said where it's like you have to change your stories in regards to how you are seeing yourself as a failure, as a good, what is a wife supposed to do? What's a? What's a good lover as a female? Like? What's a good lover as a male Like?

Speaker 1: 32:58

To me, it's like there's so many stories that are buried here. That really that's. That seems like it's step two you're you're dismantling these stories and you're it sounds like you're coaching the women you work with and the men you work with to essentially reprogram their cultural narratives around sex, and it sounds like, if I'm hearing you right, it sounds like that is this is this have to be done first or is it done right along with you know, some of the coaching you do about, because you know I do want to get into, of course, the juicy stuff that most people think they want. Like you know, what do you do in the bedroom? How do you touch a woman, like, how do you, you know, how does a woman ask to be touched the right way? But it sounds like a lot of that stuff. If I got your Cosmo, you know, kind of you know a thing, you know that you dropped to where it's kind of like, well, you know, you're thinking you're jumping the gun.

Speaker 1: 37:12

It seems like because there's these two big things that Dr Wiggins is telling us that it's like first, you have to, you know, get rid of this constant stress. Second, you have to start dismantling these stories. And then I'm wondering, like you know what's next, what's the third step then? Is it then once you start doing that? Do you start, you know, with, with practicing intimacy in a different way, or is there another level?

Speaker 2: 37:38

that then it's, then it's desire, ask, receive. So we need to work on what are our desires and that's like that's a little bit where technique comes in. But also a lot of us have to learn it for ourselves because we are so over giving you know naturally kind of kind of caregiving that we want our partners to have pleasure, so we've so focused on that and not learned how to receive it for ourselves. So a lot of the women that I work with like for them to receive pleasure, or, you know, teach them to have multiple orgasms, squirt, whatever, which is like down the road, and that's never their primary goal, but it ends up happening when we go through this process because they've learned how to receive, but when things start to really feel good, they check out, like they get out of their bodies and go into their heads. So teaching them how to be present with that high sensation is really important. But how do they even know what that is or know what they desire, like how does their thighs like to be touched, how you know their butt and does it change throughout the month with their cycle? Like all all explorations that most women have never done, and even really men, probably, to that point like we're just so focused on genitals and this like script about sex and how it goes from Hollywood or porn that we miss an opportunity for so much intimacy and connection.

Speaker 2: 39:18

So it's learning about what they desire, then it's learning about how to ask for it, and that's in and out of the bedroom and then can they receive it, because that's another big, big block, that even once they're learning what they want and then finding the voice to ask, and it's again in and out of the bedroom because they could be asking for help. They could be like I'm so overwhelmed today. Can you just, you know, rub my feet and listen to me complain for 10 minutes, like that could be an ask. But also to feel good and allow herself to receive whatever she's asking for is a big block, because then we have the guilt and then we have the story. So it's all and it's. You know we're talking about it in a linear way. Sometimes it's coming up at the same time, but that's sort of the order that I teach it and the order that it seems to work.

Speaker 1: 40:25

I love that, I love that. So let me ask you then so is it when you, when you begin to get into this desire phase, right, it's like like no, no, your desire, you know, ask and receive, if I'm hearing sort of this, this next formula, right, it's kind of like, hey, no, you know. So is that where women begin to explore themselves? And if that is the case, right, like, they start to know their body, they start to, you know, masturbate, they start to touch themselves in the way they want it. So you know then what happens? Because I know a lot of men might be like, okay, well, I want you, you know. But so how do women manage that? You know, dealing with the partners, Like, why are you, why are you doing that?

Speaker 2: 41:02

I know that's. We always need to tell them we're like, okay, there's going to be a little like less sex, as the emotions and the frustration and the learning goes on, and then I promise it will work out better later.

Speaker 1: 41:15

Yeah, and then there's this whole thing in our culture. That's really, you know, this might be being thrown a hand grenade in the room, so just tell me never. But it might be me throwing a hand grenade in the room. But one of the things about me like my orientation. I've been through all the different romantic orientation. So for me and a lot of people are going to find this weird I don't like, I don't know, whatever you do in your head doesn't concern me, like if you're fantasizing about an old lover or like whatever you know, like reading a book and fantasizing about the guy in the book, for whatever reason that doesn't impact me. In fact, I kind of want, would want, to know, because I've kind of find it hot. I would be like you know like tell me about it.

Speaker 1: 41:55

Tell me. It tells me something about what's going on in your brain. But this is what we humans do, right? I'm sure I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I'm sure there's women out there who are just like.

Speaker 1: 42:05

Well, part of it is I'm fantasizing about I don't know like I think that's why 50 shades of gray was so popular. I'm fantasizing about this other imaginary guy. That's maybe not my guy and I can't share that with my guy because that's going to do X, y, z. So there's, so I guess that's the hand grenade, I guess. But all that seems like that's part of the exploration phase, right, and you have to take the guilt off of that to kind of basically know I'm human and I'm just exploring sexuality in the way that maybe I haven't been able to in my younger years and it's completely normal and I don't know why humans get upset. You know about that Like I wouldn't. I personally wouldn't take it personally now as a 50 year old man, because I've just I've been around the block a little bit, but I can see how people can, you know?

Speaker 2: 42:52

that would really be a problem, totally. There's so many hangups about it, even to the point that I don't call it masturbation. I teach self pleasure in my courses and sometimes it's not even about orgasm, but it's about how do you know, how do you make your body feel good, even like sitting at your desk at work? Like what can we soften? Can you soften your jaw? Can you get in touch with your pelvic floor and soften that? Because we carry a lot of tension and stress there. For the most part so, but I can't even call it masturbation because there's so many hangups, so many stories, so much meaning that we make around it. And it's interesting that you bring up 50 Shades of Grey, because it was one of my earlier podcasts, not even when I was good at podcasting yet, but it is still one of my highest like downloaded episodes is my 50 Shades of Grey episode.

Speaker 2: 43:48

So, because that did allow women to explore or look at things in a different way. And I don't even think it was the BDSM parts I'm just going to give away a part of the podcast but it was because they wanted to be cared for or taking care of, like it wasn't even about the restraints or anything, it was just a woman. Like reading a story about a woman that got to completely surrender and receive. And that's what I think society is craving for women, anyway, for the most part.

Speaker 1: 44:31

You know I've never read that book. I think I watched part of the movie. But that's interesting because I think most of us would assume, oh, it's about a man, would come at it from that perspective.

Speaker 2: 44:42

Oh, a woman is like a man, Maybe I should get some handcuffs, and it's like no bro, no it's like it's all about the fact that she was taken care of and could just let go. Like I just got a tingle with you saying that yes.

Speaker 1: 44:58

That's amazing.

Speaker 2: 44:59

Yeah, so would most women, because we're like, we're on, we're in that survival, and if we could feel like he's got it and he's going to take care of it and we can like actually surrender and the kids won't get left at school and things will be done and taken care of, like. So that's yeah, that was my hypothesis and I think I must be right, based on the number of downloads that that episode hasn't. I mean, there are some issues that I have with that series and like consent and other stuff which I unpack in the podcast too, but I'm definitely going to go listen.

Speaker 1: 45:41

I'm definitely going to go listen to that, that particular episode.

Speaker 2: 45:44

I'll tell you. I want to message me and let me know what you think.

Speaker 1: 45:47

Yeah, yeah, I will. You know it's interesting because this is the first time you and I have actually met, so we haven't had this conversation. Many of my listeners I think we've listened to my other romantic podcast know this. But I did.

Speaker 1: 48:47

When I've about a decade ago, when I came out of my marriage and went through, just you know, complete upheaval and remaking of everything, I did a survey of 2000 women like I literally would go on Tinder. I got kicked off some of these things because they were like you shouldn't be doing this. But I did a survey and Tinder bumble, match Ashley Madison, like all of them, and asking women what they want. And you know, obviously I was exploring and just like because of some of my mess ups, and so one of the things that you might be interested in I think goes along with this 50 shades of great thing.

Speaker 1: 49:25

Like one of the questions in there was like what's your biggest complaint about men? And there was a psychological like what's your biggest, like mental emotional complaint, what's your biggest complaint about men sexually? And you know what it was Jordan, without like it was like something like 60 70% selfishness selfishness in bed and and mental emotional selfishness, which I think goes partly to what you're saying, that these were. This was like 2000 plus women and it was like selfishness, selfishness, selfishness. I cannot stand a man who selfish in bed. I cannot stand a selfish, that selfish man. And it would come across in different ways arrogance, selfishness, you know that kind of stuff. But it really stuck with me because that was the number one thing that came out of that survey, that women have this sort of disdain for this idea of selfishness. But maybe they can't speak up and it does go to this whole thing of like you know, take care of me for once, you know, not just yourself.

Speaker 2: 50:27

I completely agree and with again, and these are gender roles and it's how societies evolved in. You know, we used to have, like men worked outside of the home and women were home and took care of the kids and the cooking and the cleaning, and, and you know, women didn't have agency or they couldn't own their own homes or have their own bank accounts. I'm not saying that this is like the like. Women couldn't leave those situations. I'm not saying that this is the correct way, but there was more of an equal role division and she like the caregiving and nurturing and like he made the money and she did the other tasks, but that at least was reciprocal, but the women's role wasn't really respected anyway. But then, you know, fast forward and women's rights movement again, I'm not against these things like so, I just it's so nuanced. But then women got the opportunity to work outside the home and they wanted that and they wanted to have some of their own agency and everything. But at the beginning that meant, well, you still have to take care of these tasks, so women could. It's like, oh, if I could go get a degree, then I'm going to find a way to get a degree and still do everything that I had to do and was expected of me at home, at home.

Speaker 2: 52:03

So our role expanded, it doubled, tripled, and men's role sort of stayed the same for the most part and there are men out there that are that there is more of an equal division and in that kind of thing that sometimes all here like, oh, my husband's great, he cuts the grass and he will vacuum or he'll do these things If he's asked or if I'm away and like, but this woman's burnt out and her nervous system, like her stress response, is off the chart. And then I'll ask her okay, so if he's so great, why do you feel so bad? Why do you feel so burnt out? And then, like they can't answer me and they're almost a little offended. And again, it's not his intent to be selfish, but there is so much of the management in the invisible workload and all of that that men like are not aware of. And if it was, if it was so fucking great to stay at home or do all of these caregiving tasks, and like, why aren't men doing them? Why aren't men lining up to do this role?

Speaker 1: 53:22

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think you're making a really, really powerful and important point. That is like it's not something we will be able to solve, but it is something that is needs to be top of mind awareness. Our culture has fucked us in a sense in the way that this is developed. I was just talking to a girlfriend of mine recently who's like she's totally single, totally happy, never been married, never had kids, and she's just kind of me and her, you know, talk a lot as friends and she's just like I love my life and but I get judged a ton for it and so even on her side, like see what I mean. So culture really has this thing where it's like oh, yeah, you're single.

Speaker 2: 54:00

There's something wrong with you. You can't you get a man. And but the number of single women by choice is increasing and it's because they don't want another child, they don't want a selfish man and they don't need him because they have their own money. So, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic. But a lot of those women will work with me as well because they, you know, like they're successful in career, they have like so much going for them. They've they've achieved every goal they've set out for themselves and they're like but I'm missing that.

Speaker 1: 54:36

Yeah, yeah, I had the same thing. He's high performing women who essentially then come back and go, you know, but I did, I did potentially lose something, you know, and and I crave that and and that's the battle, you know, sort of that they're fighting. So it's an interesting. It's really. You know, obviously you've unpacked this. The book, by the way, is the pink canary right.

Speaker 2: 54:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:56

So so you know, because obviously we could spend all day with Jordan. I do want to ask you one more question, but just don't forget to pick up her book if you're really digging. You know sort of where she's coming from here. The final thing I want to ask you about, then, is, like, you know, let's talk, let's talk about sex, like, let's talk a little bit about, about. You know so, when you know how does a woman, and you know, speak to men too? I guess, like, how do we create and choose?

Speaker 1: 55:22

You know, because I've been a woman for a long time, you know you can choose. You know, because I think sometimes you have to create the lover you're with. You don't want to leave them. It might not be perfect. You need to create, you know, this lover and and or choose a lover that now that you've, you know you've essentially worked on getting yourself out of threat and strive mode, you've begun to you know, sort of manage your to-do list and ask for. You know, ask for some help to clear some space, and you've you begin to get in touch with your desires and you begin to ask and be able to receive. Now you're in a place right where it's like okay, so now I'm either going to create this new lover and or choose this new lover. How does a woman go about that? Like how you know how. How does that now work?

Speaker 2: 56:13

So this I love and I based this on Chinese medicine like that we learned in school, and like Taoism, the Chinese study of sexuality, and like the in the fascinating part about this, because we want steps right and we want, you know, first I do this and then I'm going to ask for this and we want it to be nice and clean. But really, if we're doing the work, it's about practicing being so. Desire, work in its essence or in the reality, it's not like okay, so what do I want? Well, I want him to go down on me more, for example, because that's a common thing that women desire and don't feel comfortable asking. But again, it's because two thirds of women don't reliably orgasm from penetration, so it's pretty safe to assume that she wants more oral, but it's then they've got their hang ups on it.

Speaker 2: 57:24

So the desires are something that are like. They're like alive and you can feel. And it's something that you can feel and it's something that you can invite people into. It's not like bossy or crusty or nagging right Like a desire. Energy is creation energy, it's feminine energy, like life force energy.

Speaker 2: 57:52

So when it's a true desire, so, or women will say to me they come with these unrefined desires, like I want more connection. It's like, okay, great, and you've probably told your husband a million times and he's like what the fuck is she talking about? More connection? Like I'm here, you know. So we're not like speaking the same language, but when we, when it's on, when it's on an energy plane, it's different, because then, like, my energetic body is speaking to your energetic body, and sometimes we're using words and sometimes we're using our body or our breath or like our senses kind of thing. But and I don't want to get too like esoteric with it but you want more connection. So what is that? What is that really? What's an ask that we can actually ask and receive, so that both people like feel good about the encounter and we just create it small from there and I'm trying to let me think, okay, so she wants that idea.

Speaker 1: 59:07

Yeah, I like the idea. So are you saying that? You know, essentially you start with asks that are. You know, maybe, just like you know, give me a foot rub, like that's a small? You know something that you I desire, that I want to relax, and then it's like you know, I don't know, just give me a massage or, you know, take a shower with me, and so you just go desire, ask, receive, and then we'll go, we'll start small and we'll build it.

Speaker 2: 59:32

Because if it's like pleasure is like the, like money and like energetically, they're very similar. So think of people that win the lottery. Statistics are that they're like broke, whatever, however many years later. And it's the same with pleasure like we just can't. We can't receive, we can't hold because we're so closed.

Speaker 2: 59:58

So it's something that we start small and we work through and in a lot of times, because we were not good, we're not in touch with our desire, so we're asking for things that we don't even really want, or we're asking for a crumb of it. So then when our male partner gives us the crumb, energetically we're not really happy because we didn't ask for the totality of what we want. So then that leaves the woman feeling bad and she can't even realize. She's like well, he did what I asked, but I still feel like crap. So I don't know what's going on. And he's like I did what she asked. I don't know what's going on. So it's like it's this refinement process, but getting her in tune with her energy around her desire, so that she can clearly communicate it. He can protect, he can provide, he can give her that thing and then when she's happy about it, then he feels like a man, like it's. It puts it in its proper Energy pole.

Speaker 1: 1:01:07

You know I get it. So it's almost like you're choosing. If you're with a man, it's like you're basic, what you're creating is someone who can be, who's going to listen to you, you know like you're like, hey, babe, I need you, like I'm gonna be very clear. So then obviously she needs to get clear within her head and he and she needs to create a man by having it's almost like I Don't know sex boundaries or sex standards or you know, and compassionately you know, communicating those to your man and then Allowing him to sort of step into that like.

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

And then if you're choosing someone, I guess the best man then you could choose is Someone who is not selfish and also is responsive To your asks, someone who you trust, and that and that that gets me to this place where these little Micro you know how would you even describe them like in relationships, where these these little micro abrasive, you know Encroachments on trust which I would would probably degrade the ability to ask.

Speaker 1: 1:02:05

So if you're gonna create a new relationship, you're gonna have to, you know, allow them to start small and trust you and you have to trust them. And if you're choosing this from the get-go, it's like almost like your radar needs to be up of. Like you know, is he actually Responsive for me, and maybe I need to, like you know, ask for what I want. As uncomfortable as it is, especially if it's new, it's gonna be far easier, right, and so it sounds like that's essentially what you're saying, but I like this idea, if I'm hearing you right, that it's a it's not just like all at once, it's like, you know, get a small thing that you really, though, are desirous about, so it's got to be a full thing.

Speaker 2: 1:02:40

It has to feel alive to you.

Speaker 1: 1:02:42

It has to feel like I really would want this, not just because, oh, it's a small ass, but something I really want and then allow, and something easier than the whole shebang, but something that you really want. And then it's step by step, by step, wise, and that seems that's really interesting the way that you Do that, because that seems like that could work and it's a psychological principle, like we all know. You know, despite there were adults like you do this with a child, like you can essentially, you know it's kind of like training your dog.

Speaker 2: 1:03:10

It is like, but it's for both of us right like cuz yeah, and her trust has been Arroded and so has his. Like there's hurt on both sides, especially if they've been in a relationship for a long time. So by doing it small like this, it bypasses all of those Walls like it sneaks in there, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:03:35

If I can ask you, let me just act, cuz I want to just make sure I understand this, cuz it's important and it's and I'm also just very interesting for myself.

Speaker 1: 1:03:41

So let's, let's, let's just play this out and then I'll let you go, cuz I know I want to be respectful of your time, but let me let me play this out. So let's say, would it work something like this, right, so you ask your man for Something that you really want, right, and and maybe it's not even in the sexual realm, but you just ask him for something that, and then he shows up and does that, and then is it like, okay, I'm like like dog training, am I gonna give him a reward? That like, is it gonna be like I'm actually gonna, you know, rather than just doing this for you all the time and being completely selfish, I'm actually gonna be like you stood, you, you, and I know we don't like to fake this way, but it's like kind of this, this reciprocity style of matching and going okay, you did this, you know, now you get a handjob, or now you get like, you know, is it like that, or am I, you know, is it is?

Speaker 2: 1:04:28

it is like that in essence, but we have to be careful because if we're gonna give him something that he wants but it makes us feel Resentful as a reward, and then we're gonna erode.

Speaker 1: 1:04:40

Yeah, I got it, so it has to be in complete alignment with your, your authentic desirous State and something you might want to do anyway. Right? So it's not just like I'm not gonna like give you you know, you have you do something for me and then do something I don't want to do. It's like I'm gonna have you do something for me and then I'm gonna do something that I love to do for you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:00

It is that, yes, and it could even be your true gratitude and presence because, like, if Something was to be done for me and I'm Truly Grateful and it took some Like stress off my plate, so like my shoulders are gonna relax a little, I'm gonna soften a little, like I'm gonna look deeper Into your eyes, you know. So it could even just be a like true gratitude and in presence, like you can Reward them with your presence, because we don't, we don't even realize how much we're not present With each other, 100% today.

Speaker 1: 1:05:50

All right. So let me just do a quick review, give you final chance to correct anything I get wrong, and then we can, we can wrap up. So so if we, if we hear Jordan correctly, dr Wiggins, she's essentially Starting us out. You're starting us out with this idea that we need to get out of threat mode, striving mode. Women need to learn to get into their parasympathetic Sort of state.

Speaker 2: 1:06:11

Yeah, that's no pleasure. No pleasure is going on and you're not broken, it's just your physiology.

Speaker 1: 1:06:16

No pleasure is going on if we're in fight-or-flight and, by the way, if you follow Jordan online, she goes through a lot of this stuff a lot of the time, so she has lots of tools, tricks and tips for you. So and then part two, part two of this, let me see if I'm okay. So part two of this is like okay, so now you need to, you know, go it, check in with your to-do list and be able to start Clearing that out, becoming realistic and, you know, sharing some of the load and or, you know, undoing some of your stories that I got to be everything all the time.

Speaker 2: 1:06:50

So that's where. That's where we start with. That is what are your desires. Yeah like, what am I desiring? Like, how do I create more space? How do I ask for more help so that I can be Dropping into that parasympathetic?

Speaker 1: 1:07:07

Yeah, yeah and you and then that part you also taught. No, we're teaching us about the idea that it's sort of like this, this loop at least that the way I saw it in my mind.

Speaker 2: 1:07:15

It's like get in touch with your desire, Ask, be able to receive, get in touch with your desire and then we're just gonna receive, and then it's doom, doom, doom, like that.

Speaker 1: 1:07:24

Yeah and then it sounds like the last part which was really interesting for me Is then this idea of I don't necessarily know how to, but it's sort of like a reciprocity, a sexual reciprocity style, where you're essentially Allowing your partner to kind of step up and finding something that you really want and would really be amazing for you, but not the whole shebang, something you know, maybe on the small side. So you start with that and you begin, you know, sort of, you know, creating this loop in that regard and and building, I guess, competence for him and and trust for yourself that he, he, steps up. And you'd want to do that with whoever, if you were with a man, that's new. And or if you know, you're trying to rework your, your sexual relationship with your current Guy have. Have I missed anything? You know?

Speaker 2: 1:08:16

Nope, you, you in in essence like high level. That's that's it. That's the the way that I found works to really Shift things in a relationship, or it's a way to like really create a good new one.

Speaker 1: 1:08:33

Hmm, and you know, I know for many of you you're gonna, you know, the podcast like this are always tough. I know I would, you know, get you, get these complaints. You're like, oh, I want more, I want more. Well, you know, jordan is Incredibly, you know, gracious in her teaching. So you know, follow her at on her Instagram handle. It's at Dr Jordan Wiggins. That's Jordan with an I and Wiggins with 2g. So dr at you know, at dr Jordan Wiggins. Her website also is what is it again? Jordan? So it's the the pleasure collectivecom.

Speaker 1: 1:09:07

Yeah, the pleasure collective comm is so. Obviously you're getting a taste of the work and Obviously, you can see how important this is also for you men. I mainly have a female audience, but for you, men, don't worry, I'm gonna do another episode just for you. And what's funny about women is they're gonna be as interested in that too. So you men need to learn a lesson from that, because women will actually listen to that. So you went, you men need to listen to this. I am gonna do an episode for you, because there is, you know, men are getting it handed to them, and there are things about men that are difficult and unique, just like there are, you know, things about women. So that will be coming. But, jordan, thank you for your work. You know, is there any other thing or any other thing you want to leave us with?

Speaker 2: 1:09:53

and Final words, Thank you for having me. I love that you're doing a men episode too, because these conversations are so important to have. And just yeah, my, my podcast is another great. Oh yeah, that's right to the pleasure principles podcast is another great place to deepen the understanding of everything that we chatted about today.

Speaker 1: 1:10:15

Yeah, and you know, I didn't know you had a podcast. I've been following you on. I must have missed that somewhere a lot. I've just been following you on Instagram and loving your work, so I am definitely gonna listen shame on me for not doing my my good marketing. No, I know you got a market better yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:10:30

That's on me Well and it's like it's a top 2% Globally in relationships.

Speaker 1: 1:10:36

Oh, I'm sure you're.

Speaker 2: 1:10:37

I mean, look you're there's a lot of that's bad. I'm like that. I'm like, oh, shoot, that's, that's good. This should be out front center.

Speaker 1: 1:10:45

Yeah, and you know it's like you know, you're just a fantastic Educator, incredibly humble and just super charismatic. We really appreciate your work and really appreciate you being on. And just before you hang up, let me shut this off so I don't lose you because we want to let this load up. But for all of you, thank you so much for hanging out and Thank you so much to dr Wiggins for her time. I